The Stupid Concept of Hell

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SEG
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The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by SEG » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:35 am

Fear is the main motivator when Christians decide to avoid hell, but what is there to be scared of if you think it exists? If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn. Satan could stick you all he likes but it will be like punching holes in the wind. What's the criteria for being sent there and where is it anyway> Sadly the Bible doesn't say. It can't be that important as the OT doesn't mention it at all, and there is scant info on it in the NT.

What's the logic in being eternal? What would that achieve? If the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys? The whole concept is ridiculous and nothing to be frightened about.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Claire » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:40 am

SEG wrote:If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn. Satan could stick you all he likes but it will be like punching holes in the wind.
There's numerous testimonies of what people have claimed to have seen take place in Hell via visions, near death experiences, etc. For example,
https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/h ... -hell.html
SEG wrote:If the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys?
The suffering one undergoes in Hell is brought upon by their own choices they chose to commit and refuse to repent for.
SEG wrote:What's the criteria for being sent there?
Those in Hell are there based on certain choices they made, and the will they had behind those choices, etc, when on Earth.
SEG wrote:Where is it anyway?
I currently don't know the exact location. I'll get back to you if I find out. But, I know how Hell came into being: According to an angel called "Azariah", at the moment Lucifer became satan he describes,

"Truly then in Creation, in all Creation, from the lowest [form] to the very depths, there was a horrendous convulsion from the horror of these sacrilegious words. A convulsion such as will not [again] be until the end of Creation. And from it was born Hell: the kingdom of Hate."
SEG wrote:The whole concept is ridiculous and nothing to be frightened about.
The concept of a place where those who reject love over hate, and good over evil go is ridiculous? You must find the concept of a justice system ridiculous as well then.
SEG wrote:It can't be that important as the OT doesn't mention it at all, and there is scant info on it in the NT.
Descriptions of Hell can be found in the Bible. But, the Bible doesn't contain everything there is to know about it. Also, the Bible isn't the only source of information available to us.
SEG wrote:What's the logic in being eternal? What would that achieve?
Only God is eternal. Eternity is to have no beginning and no end. That is God. Immortality is to continue to live since life began. That is the spirit of man. That is the difference.

From the moment man is created to live, because of his spirit, through Grace and his own will, they can reach eternal life. Not eternity. Life implies a beginning.

Moving on, what would you say is the purpose behind a transitory life?

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SEG
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by SEG » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:13 pm

Claire wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:40 am
SEG wrote:If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn. Satan could stick you all he likes but it will be like punching holes in the wind.
There's numerous testimonies of what people have claimed to have seen take place in Hell via visions, near death experiences, etc. For example,
https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/h ... -hell.html
What? How could a woman this cute ever go to hell?
Ivanka Trump.jpg
Ivanka Trump.jpg (30.14 KiB) Viewed 838 times
besides, you haven't gotten around this obstacle: If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn.
SEG wrote:If the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys?
The suffering one undergoes in Hell is brought upon by their own choices they chose to commit and refuse to repent for.
but if the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys?
SEG wrote:What's the criteria for being sent there?
Those in Hell are there based on certain choices they made, and the will they had behind those choices, etc, when on Earth.
You have listed no criteria, what makes up the doctrine, or are you making all this up?
SEG wrote:Where is it anyway?
I currently don't know the exact location. I'll get back to you if I find out.
It used to be "down there" under the Earth, just like your god used to be "up there" in the clouds. Once science had figured out that those places had been thoroughly examined and no trace of them hanging out there, they slipped into being in an invisible dimension.
But, I know how Hell came into being: According to an angel called "Azariah", at the moment Lucifer became satan he describes,

"Truly then in Creation, in all Creation, from the lowest [form] to the very depths, there was a horrendous convulsion from the horror of these sacrilegious words. A convulsion such as will not [again] be until the end of Creation. And from it was born Hell: the kingdom of Hate."
I believe the concept originated from Zoroastrianism and neighbouring Hellenistic religions, spilling over onto Judaism. From Wiki:
Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, although the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenistic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions.
SEG wrote:The whole concept is ridiculous and nothing to be frightened about.
The concept of a place where those who reject love over hate, and good over evil go is ridiculous? You must find the concept of a justice system ridiculous as well then.
No, our legal system is very much part of our reality.
SEG wrote:It can't be that important as the OT doesn't mention it at all, and there is scant info on it in the NT.
Descriptions of Hell can be found in the Bible. But, the Bible doesn't contain everything there is to know about it. Also, the Bible isn't the only source of information available to us.
Thank God!
SEG wrote:What's the logic in being eternal? What would that achieve?
Only God is eternal. Eternity is to have no beginning and no end. That is God. Immortality is to continue to live since life began. That is the spirit of man. That is the difference.
Special pleading.
Moving on, what would you say is the purpose behind a transitory life?
The purpose of our lives is unknown. Reality works in mysterious ways.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Claire » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:31 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn. Satan could stick you all he likes but it will be like punching holes in the wind.
There's numerous testimonies of what people have claimed to have seen take place in Hell via visions, near death experiences, etc. For example,
https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/h ... -hell.html
...you haven't gotten around this obstacle: If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn.
For an accurate understanding I provided you with a link to testimonies of how people suffer in Hell.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:If the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys?
The suffering one undergoes in Hell is brought upon by their own choices they chose to commit and refuse to repent for.
But, if the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys?
Read the link above to know what occurs in Hell.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:What's the criteria for being sent there?
Those in Hell are there based on certain choices they made, and the will they had behind those choices, etc, when on Earth.
You have listed no criteria, what makes up the doctrine, or are you making all this up?
Why would those who reject God and chose to live a life of immorality without remorse, etc, choose Heaven over Hell?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:But, I know how Hell came into being: According to an angel called "Azariah", at the moment Lucifer became satan he describes,

"Truly then in Creation, in all Creation, from the lowest [form] to the very depths, there was a horrendous convulsion from the horror of these sacrilegious words. A convulsion such as will not [again] be until the end of Creation. And from it was born Hell: the kingdom of Hate."
I believe the concept originated from Zoroastrianism and neighbouring Hellenistic religions, spilling over onto Judaism. From Wiki:
Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, although the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenistic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions.
Every group of people on Earth has taken an interest in spiritual matters at one time or another. Just because groups surrounding the Hebrews also pondered the afterlife does not mean that they invented it, or that the Hebrews only started believing in it after encountering the ideas in other cultures. There's only one spiritual Truth and it makes sense different cultures would perceive the spiritual realm in different ways, but that does not change the existence of Hell. And, I would argue it reinforces the belief in Hell because various cultures were able to understand its existence.

In addition, in my previous post, I was just providing an explanation as to when and why Hell itself was created. It wasn't about when a certain group of people first became aware of an afterlife.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:The whole concept is ridiculous and nothing to be frightened about.
The concept of a place where those who reject love over hate, and good over evil go is ridiculous? You must find the concept of a justice system ridiculous as well then.
No, our legal system is very much part of our reality.
What's ridiculous about the idea of a dwelling place where those who reject love over hate and good over evil spend eternal life?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:What's the logic in being eternal? What would that achieve?
Only God is eternal. Eternity is to have no beginning and no end. That is God. Immortality is to continue to live since life began. That is the spirit of man. That is the difference.

From the moment man is created to live, because of his spirit, through Grace and his own will, they can reach eternal life. Not eternity. Life implies a beginning.
Special pleading.
You asked what's the logic behind humans being eternal, and I explained why we're not eternal. I think what you meant to ask is: What's the purpose behind eternal life for human beings?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Moving on, what would you say is the purpose behind a transitory life?
The purpose of our lives is unknown.
The purpose can be known and is to numerous people.

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SEG
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by SEG » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:51 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:31 am
For an accurate understanding I provided you with a link to testimonies of how people suffer in Hell.
It doesn't makes sense if you have no material substance to burn. An immaterial being has immaterial nerve sensors.
SEG wrote: I believe the concept originated from Zoroastrianism and neighbouring Hellenistic religions, spilling over onto Judaism. From Wiki:
Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, although the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenistic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions.
Claire wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:31 am
Every group of people on Earth has taken an interest in spiritual matters at one time or another. Just because groups surrounding the Hebrews also pondered the afterlife does not mean that they invented it, or that the Hebrews only started believing in it after encountering the ideas in other cultures. There's only one spiritual Truth and it makes sense different cultures would perceive the spiritual realm in different ways, but that does not change the existence of Hell. And, I would argue it reinforces the belief in Hell because various cultures were able to understand its existence.

In addition, in my previous post, I was just providing an explanation as to when and why Hell itself was created. It wasn't about when a certain group of people first became aware of an afterlife.
Well the Jewish people never knew about hell and the apocalypse before they were conquered. The concepts of heaven and a fiery hell appear only after the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. The closest concept they had about hell was Sheol. Even the Christian writer John Pelt said that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).” That's why Paul was silent about it, he never had a clue.
Claire wrote:The purpose can be known and is to numerous people.
That's new to me, what is it according to you?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Chapabel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:23 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:35 am
Fear is the main motivator when Christians decide to avoid hell, but what is there to be scared of if you think it exists? If you die and get cremated, what's left to get burnt? If you believe in a soul, it's not material anyway and can't burn. Satan could stick you all he likes but it will be like punching holes in the wind. What's the criteria for being sent there and where is it anyway> Sadly the Bible doesn't say. It can't be that important as the OT doesn't mention it at all, and there is scant info on it in the NT.

What's the logic in being eternal? What would that achieve? If the devil is punishing the evil doers, isn't he doing God's bidding and one of the good guys? The whole concept is ridiculous and nothing to be frightened about.
There will be a physical resurrection of all lost people after the Great Tribulation. They will have bodies that will be cast into the Lake of fire: Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is plenty of information in the Bible concerning Hell, if you would take the time to study for yourself. The criteria for being sent to Hell is very simple: Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That's all. It is eternal because the soul is eternal. If you refuse to live with Christ and for Christ in this life, you get to live without Him in the next. God will give you exactly what you desire.

BTW, it isn't Satan who is doing the punishing. That's a ridicules assumption. Satan is the one being punished and all those who follow him simply share in his torture. If you find yourself in Hell it is because that is where you chose to spend eternity. Good luck with that.

Humanguy
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Humanguy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:07 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:23 pm
The criteria for being sent to Hell is very simple: Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
You realize that you've just consigned most of the world's population to hell.

Claire
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Claire » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:16 pm

SEG wrote:It doesn't makes sense if you have no material substance to burn. An immaterial being has immaterial nerve sensors.
The following link talks about the fire. If you read it, is it about what you're talking about?
https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/h ... -hell.html
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Every group of people on Earth has taken an interest in spiritual matters at one time or another. Just because groups surrounding the Hebrews also pondered the afterlife does not mean that they invented it, or that the Hebrews only started believing in it after encountering the ideas in other cultures. There's only one spiritual Truth and it makes sense different cultures would perceive the spiritual realm in different ways, but that does not change the existence of Hell. And, I would argue it reinforces the belief in Hell because various cultures were able to understand its existence.

In addition, in my previous post, I was just providing an explanation as to when and why Hell itself was created. It wasn't about when a certain group of people first became aware of an afterlife.
Well the Jewish people never knew about hell and the apocalypse before they were conquered. The concepts of heaven and a fiery hell appear only after the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. The closest concept they had about hell was Sheol. Even the Christian writer John Pelt said that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).” That's why Paul was silent about it, he never had a clue.
What I said stands. And, whether people use the word "Sheol" or Hell" it doesn't matter, because the point is such a place is believed to exist. You say Paul never had a clue about it? He said,

"In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day". (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10)
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:The purpose of our lives is unknown.
The purpose can be known and is to numerous people.
That's new to me, what is it according to you?
I've answered this before. See this thread.

Claire
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Claire » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:17 pm

Chapabel wrote:It is eternal because the soul is eternal.
Chapabel wrote:If you find yourself in Hell it is because that is where you chose to spend eternity.
Only God is eternal. Eternity is to have no beginning and no end. That is God. Immortality is to continue to live since life began. That is the spirit of man. That is the difference.

From the moment man is created to live, because of his spirit, through Grace and his own will, they can reach eternal life. Not eternity. Life implies a beginning.
Humanguy wrote:
Chapabel wrote:The criteria for being sent to Hell is very simple: Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
You realize that you've just consigned most of the world's population to hell.
Most of the population believe in God or a god(s). But, that in itself doesn't mean each person who does is guaranteed to go to Heaven. A person may believe God doesn't exist, but that's still a belief and having faith it's true. And, if that same person lives a life God calls people to, then why would they go to spend eternity in a place that doesn't reflect their life on Earth, and where they don't continue to know God? They wouldn't and these Bible passage support this:

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

"Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity." (1 John 4: 7–8)

Chapabel referenced Revelation 20:11-15:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

While it's how we chose to live here on Earth that will reveal to us where we continue to spend eternal life, it's also our will behind what we do or don't do. For example, let's say there's two people who steal money from another:

(i) Person A steals in order to increase personal wealth.

(ii) Person B steals in order to feed/clothe another.

While both committed an immoral act (sin), one of the two's actions is more grievous than the other.

Only God knows what each person has thought and done, and only He knows the intentions and circumstances behind every thought and action, how they felt afterward about it, and how each decision affected someone else and their thought process and decisions from that, etc. And, He doesn't judge someone based on one particular action, like stealing or refusing to believe God or a god(s) exist, but our lives as a whole.

Human beings cannot accomplish any of this perfectly which is why our justice system is flawed. We will all one day be judged in the highest court by the perfect judge. And, where each of us continue to spend eternity is based on how we chose to live our lives here on Earth.

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Chapabel
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Re: The Stupid Concept of Hell

Post by Chapabel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:09 pm

Humanguy wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:07 pm
Chapabel wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:23 pm
The criteria for being sent to Hell is very simple: Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
You realize that you've just consigned most of the world's population to hell.
I have consigned no one anywhere. The only life I control is my own. I have assured my eternal security by placing my faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. If the majority of the worlds population chooses Hell over Heaven that is their choice, not mine.

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