More and better miracles than Jesus

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Claire
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:11 am

Chapabel wrote:I explained how God speaks to believers through the in dwelling Holy Ghost. You cannot comprehend this because you are not saved.
I said it's true God speaks through the indwelling Holy Ghost. But, I also was saying Jesus continues to speak audibly as well. You believe He only speaks to people through the Holy Spirit concerning matters of salvation. What evidence is there for this? And, if you're correct, when we're in Heaven there's no need for Him to continue discussing salvation. We'd be spending eternal life with a living, mute Jesus. Considering that, and how "Everything needed for salvation, sanctification and glorification are already contained within the Bible", Jesus may as well be dead the way you portray Him.
Chapabel wrote:...even those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit do not receive any new revelations from God as you claim Maria did.
Jesus will continue to speak to people throughout the centuries about whatever He chooses. In regards to Maria Valtorta specifically, to her He elaborated on events, and the lives of people, mentioned within the existing and known gospels. And, anything new was not an addition, rather the gaps, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, were filled in.

Jesus also said,

"The reasons that have induced Me to enlighten and dictate episodes and words of mine to Little John (His nickname for Maria), in addition to the joy of communicating an exact knowledge of Me to this loving victim-soul, manifold. But, the moving spirit of all of them is My love for the Church, both teaching and militant, and My desire to help souls in their ascent towards perfection. The knowledge of Me helps to ascend. My Word is Life."

[You can read the reasons in full here]
And if I wanted to take pleasure in restoring the picture of My Divine Charity as a restorer of mosaics does replacing the tesserae damaged or missing, reinstating the mosaic in its complete beauty, and I have decided to do it in this century in which mankind is hurling itself towards the Abyss of darkness and horror, can you forbid me from doing so? Can you say perhaps that you do not need it, you whos spirits are dull, weak, deaf to lights, voices, and invitations from Above?
No one can forbid Him from doing so. What more He chose to reveal for the benefit of souls, through Maria Valtorta and others, has already been put out into the world. It's another gift from God and one I pray you open your soul to receiving.
Last edited by Claire on Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:15 am

SEG wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:50 am

Yeah? This article shows that the writer (Even though he teaches at Cambridge!) is ignorant of the arguments, just like you.

See: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12334
Well if you can use blogs for evidence, I'll try it as well. However, the blog I am going to reference is from Bart Ehrman. You may be familiar with his work since he is an atheist as well. While I vehemently disagree with his conclusion concerning the divinity of Jesus, Ehrman is emphatic that Jesus of Nazareth did exist early in the first century and the Christian religion is based on Him. Apparently your Carrier hero blasted Ehrman's book Did Jesus Exist? I'll spare you the lengthy post from Ehrman, but I will attach the link so you can enjoy some scholarly reading. Ehrman easily refutes the scathing criticism from Carrier and actually makes him look as foolish as you look on this forum. Ehrman's conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth did exist seems to be without serious opposition. Happy reading: :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/

Claire
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:28 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Now, what I find peculiar is with all Chapabel's talk about numerous eyewitness accounts of Jesus's resurrection, and him believing them to be true, at the same time he believes Jesus, the living God, no longer directly talks to people.
Are you on the turn Claire?
No, but I don't have to be in order to find it puzzling.
So, Chapabel said God speaks to believers through the indwelling Holy Ghost, which I said was true. But, I also said Jesus continues to speak audibly as well. Anyway, He also believes that when Jesus does speak it's only about matters of salvation. What evidence is there for this? And, if he was correct, when we're in Heaven there's no more need for Him to discuss that one thing, salvation. Therefore, we'd be spending eternal life with a living, mute Jesus.

He responded with,

"Your question about living in eternity with a mute Jesus shows how out of touch with Biblical Christianity you truly are."

But, based on what Chapabel said, that's the Jesus he's portraying!

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 am

Chapabel wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:15 am
Well if you can use blogs for evidence, I'll try it as well.
I wasn't using blogs as evidence, I was pointing out your non-evidence of a historical Jesus by referring you to a very damning article by Carrier.
However, the blog I am going to reference is from Bart Ehrman. You may be familiar with his work since he is an atheist as well. While I vehemently disagree with his conclusion concerning the divinity of Jesus, Ehrman is emphatic that Jesus of Nazareth did exist early in the first century and the Christian religion is based on Him. Apparently your Carrier hero blasted Ehrman's book Did Jesus Exist? I'll spare you the lengthy post from Ehrman, but I will attach the link so you can enjoy some scholarly reading. Ehrman easily refutes the scathing criticism from Carrier and actually makes him look as foolish as you look on this forum. Ehrman's conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth did exist seems to be without serious opposition. Happy reading: :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/
I normally like Ehrman's works, particular "Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" , but his "Did Jesus Exist" was a real stinker. Did you read it? It didn't pass peer review and was him mainly bleating "But he DID exist!" without any hard evidence. Carrier's work "On The Historicity of Jesus" on the other hand was peer reviewed. Ehrhman has never published any peer reviewed book or article on defending the historicity of Jesus. It shows in that sloppy book, you really should read it for a good laugh!

I loved these comments contained in what you cited:
Dr. Ehrman,
You write that you are not aware of any scholars today that think that the Tacitus quotation (“Testimonium Taciteum”) is an interpolation.
In Europe there are such scholars today. See, most recently, Hermann Detering, Falsche Zeugen. Ausserchristliche Jesuszeugnisse auf dem Prüfstand, Aschaffenburg 2011, pp. 43-74. Dr. Detering argues – in my view convincingly – that we are here dealing with a Christian interpolation.
Nor can any NT scholar to ignore what Dr. Detering has to say about Pliny, op.cit. pp. 75-121.
Regards
Dr. Christian Lindtner (Denmark)


Bart Ehrman Bart Ehrman April 26, 2012
Thanks so much for this information! It’s good always to learn….
Viracocha May 20, 2012
Even if this quotation is true it is not worth of any credit since Tacitus quotes a belief already spread from Christians via the Gospels, which means that historically it’s not worth at all.
joe piecuch April 25, 2012
in a podcast interview posted on 4/3/12 at homebrewedchristianity.com, you were asked about the quickly-becoming-infamous ‘cock’ statue, and said, “It’s just made up. There is no such statue. It’s completely made up”. i’ve spent the last couple of days arguing with critics of your book ‘Did Jesus Exist?’ that your remarks about the statue in your book, and in response to richard carrier’s review of it, while perhaps not clearly stated, were nevertheless honest and, strictly speaking, accurate. the radio interview and its date tend to make it appear that you were in fact mistaken and have subsequently been dissembling. i would appreciate it very much if you would address the issue; it seems to have gained with many people immense importance with regard to your credibility. thanks very much,
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:42 pm

SEG wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 am

I normally like Ehrman's works, particular "Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" , but his "Did Jesus Exist" was a real stinker. Did you read it? It didn't pass peer review and was him mainly bleating "But he DID exist!" without any hard evidence. Carrier's work "On The Historicity of Jesus" on the other hand was peer reviewed. Ehrhman has never published any peer reviewed book or article on defending the historicity of Jesus. It shows in that sloppy book, you really should read it for a good laugh!
You mean you like Ehrman's work when it supports your beliefs, but when it opposes a view you hold, it then becomes sloppy. Ehrman does own up to a few errors he made in the book such as misstating Carrier's degree, but his evidence for Jesus' existence is not one of the errors. The book did not pass peer review because he didn't write it for scholars. This wasn't a textbook. He plainly stated that he wrote it for the everyday reader. The scholars Ehrman reached out to did indeed support and verify the evidence he presented in the book to support the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did live. Ehrman's final comment sums up that there is no real scholarly opposition to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did exist:
But I do hope, at least, that fair minded readers will see be open to the arguments that I make and the evidence that I adduce in Did Jesus Exist, and realize that they are the views, in popular form, of serious scholarship. They are not only serious scholarly views, they are the views held by virtually every serious scholar in the field of early Christian studies.
Your boy Carrier is considered an atheist activist. He preaches atheism and uses his credentials to support his rabid disdain for everything Christian. I could just as easily presented Christian scholars such as Dr Ravi Zacharias, R.C. Sproul or Alister McGrath to prop up my beliefs, but I didn't. I presented an atheist who presents evidence with no bias at all. Your position has no foundation and crumbles upon examination. Fare thee well SEG

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:42 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:42 pm
SEG wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 am

I normally like Ehrman's works, particular "Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" , but his "Did Jesus Exist" was a real stinker. Did you read it? It didn't pass peer review and was him mainly bleating "But he DID exist!" without any hard evidence. Carrier's work "On The Historicity of Jesus" on the other hand was peer reviewed. Ehrhman has never published any peer reviewed book or article on defending the historicity of Jesus. It shows in that sloppy book, you really should read it for a good laugh!
You mean you like Ehrman's work when it supports your beliefs, but when it opposes a view you hold, it then becomes sloppy. Ehrman does own up to a few errors he made in the book such as misstating Carrier's degree, but his evidence for Jesus' existence is not one of the errors. The book did not pass peer review because he didn't write it for scholars. This wasn't a textbook. He plainly stated that he wrote it for the everyday reader. The scholars Ehrman reached out to did indeed support and verify the evidence he presented in the book to support the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did live. Ehrman's final comment sums up that there is no real scholarly opposition to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did exist:
But I do hope, at least, that fair minded readers will see be open to the arguments that I make and the evidence that I adduce in Did Jesus Exist, and realize that they are the views, in popular form, of serious scholarship. They are not only serious scholarly views, they are the views held by virtually every serious scholar in the field of early Christian studies.
Your boy Carrier is considered an atheist activist. He preaches atheism and uses his credentials to support his rabid disdain for everything Christian. I could just as easily presented Christian scholars such as Dr Ravi Zacharias, R.C. Sproul or Alister McGrath to prop up my beliefs, but I didn't. I presented an atheist who presents evidence with no bias at all. Your position has no foundation and crumbles upon examination. Fare thee well SEG
You may have missed where I said, Ehrhman has never published ANY peer reviewed book or article on defending the historicity of Jesus.

Instead of mindlessly copying and pasting articles that you know little about, please provide your 3 best sources that speak of Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth beyond the Bible - if you have 3· This should be easy for you if you think he really existed outside of your favourite book.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 am

Chapabel wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:42 pm
I presented an atheist who presents evidence with no bias at all.
Would you consider this statement biased, before he even makes a case in that horribly written book?

“The reality is that whatever else you may think about Jesus, he certainly did exist. That is what this book will set out to demonstrate.”

Ehrman was a fundie just like you. His entire career depends on him not letting go of his firmly entrenched beliefs about an historical Jesus.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:55 pm

SEG wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:42 pm
Instead of mindlessly copying and pasting articles that you know little about, please provide your 3 best sources that speak of Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth beyond the Bible - if you have 3· This should be easy for you if you think he really existed outside of your favourite book.
For starters, you are projecting your methods of parroting what others believe. You are the copy and paster who cannot assure the veracity of your sources. So please don't even go there with me. Secondly, why do you want me to list more sources outside of the Bible? You have already determined you will not accept them. Outside sources have already been named and you dismiss them. You have latched on to the falsehoods that these ancient writings are forgeries or have been tampered with, so what would be the benefit of supplying more evidence? I won't waste more time researching evidence just for you to disregard it out of ignorance and blindness.
Would you consider this statement biased, before he even makes a case in that horribly written book?

“The reality is that whatever else you may think about Jesus, he certainly did exist. That is what this book will set out to demonstrate.”

Ehrman was a fundie just like you. His entire career depends on him not letting go of his firmly entrenched beliefs about an historical Jesus.
Um, yes I do consider it unbiased. Ehrman is not a Christian. He is an atheist who happens to believe Jesus of Nazareth actually lived 2,000 years ago and he presents evidence to support his position which is accepted by academia. Ehrman isn't trying to lead anyone to faith in Christ because he himself has no faith in Christ. As far as him being a former fundie, that is bunk. He was never a Christian despite his claim. He may be an expert in the New Testament writings, but he is ignorant in application of Christian doctrine. So Ehrman never have entrenched beliefs in Christianity to begin with. Now, unless you have something new to present, I see no reason to continue this discussion. But, if you wish to be another dunderhead and continue asking foolish questions, be my guest.

Claire
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:33 am

Chapabel wrote:
SEG wrote:Would you consider this statement biased, before he even makes a case in that horribly written book?

“The reality is that whatever else you may think about Jesus, he certainly did exist. That is what this book will set out to demonstrate.”

Ehrman was a fundie just like you. His entire career depends on him not letting go of his firmly entrenched beliefs about an historical Jesus.
Um, yes I do consider it unbiased. Ehrman is not a Christian. He is an atheist who happens to believe Jesus of Nazareth actually lived 2,000 years ago and he presents evidence to support his position which is accepted by academia. Ehrman isn't trying to lead anyone to faith in Christ because he himself has no faith in Christ. As far as him being a former fundie, that is bunk. He was never a Christian despite his claim. He may be an expert in the New Testament writings, but he is ignorant in application of Christian doctrine. So Ehrman never have entrenched beliefs in Christianity to begin with.
From what I've come across so far, as a teenager Ehrman became a born-again, fundamentalist Christian, remained a liberal Christian for over a decade, and later became an agnostic atheist. And, you've made it clear you believe atheists, and non-Baptist Christians in general of being ignorant of Biblical doctrine and history, etc. So, how convenient is it that this Ehrman, an atheist, who claims Jesus of Nazareth existed, is exempt from that criticism and judgment, unlike the other atheists, rather called an "expert"...

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Claire wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:33 am
From what I've come across so far, as a teenager Ehrman became a born-again, fundamentalist Christian, remained a liberal Christian for over a decade, and later became an agnostic atheist. And, you've made it clear you believe atheists, and non-Baptist Christians in general of being ignorant of Biblical doctrine and history, etc. So, how convenient is it that this Ehrman, an atheist, who claims Jesus of Nazareth existed, is exempt from that criticism and judgment, unlike the other atheists, rather called an "expert"...
Spot on again Claire! If Chappy had bothered to research he wouldn't need to lie about Ehrman. According to Wiki:
In Misquoting Jesus Ehrman recounts becoming a born-again, fundamentalist Christian as a teenager.[1] He recounts being certain in his youthful enthusiasm that God had inspired the wording of the Bible and protected its texts from all error.[1] His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages, particularly Koine Greek, and to textual criticism. During his graduate studies, however, he became convinced that there are contradictions and discrepancies in the biblical manuscripts that could not be harmonized or reconciled:[1]

I did my very best to hold on to my faith that the Bible was the inspired word of God with no mistakes and that lasted for about two years … I realized that at the time we had over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, and no two of them are exactly alike. The scribes were changing them, sometimes in big ways, but lots of times in little ways. And it finally occurred to me that if I really thought that God had inspired this text … If he went to the trouble of inspiring the text, why didn’t he go to the trouble of preserving the text? Why did he allow scribes to change it?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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