More and better miracles than Jesus

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:18 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:55 pm
You have latched on to the falsehoods that these ancient writings are forgeries or have been tampered with,
All the serious biblical scholars acknowledge that your "best" evidence for Jesus has come from a non-eyewitness (Josephus) at the end of the first century and been fiddled with and forged. The only thing in contention is how much is forged. You should know this by now. All the other secular writings come after the second century and only talk about Christians, no mention of Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth or even just "Christ". It really is piss poor evidence if you really think that your demi-god was wildly popular.

Just admit it, you've got nuthin' and plenty of it.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:50 pm

SEG wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:05 pm
Claire wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:33 am
From what I've come across so far, as a teenager Ehrman became a born-again, fundamentalist Christian, remained a liberal Christian for over a decade, and later became an agnostic atheist. And, you've made it clear you believe atheists, and non-Baptist Christians in general of being ignorant of Biblical doctrine and history, etc. So, how convenient is it that this Ehrman, an atheist, who claims Jesus of Nazareth existed, is exempt from that criticism and judgment, unlike the other atheists, rather called an "expert"...
Spot on again Claire! If Chappy had bothered to research he wouldn't need to lie about Ehrman. According to Wiki:
In Misquoting Jesus Ehrman recounts becoming a born-again, fundamentalist Christian as a teenager.[1] He recounts being certain in his youthful enthusiasm that God had inspired the wording of the Bible and protected its texts from all error.[1] His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages, particularly Koine Greek, and to textual criticism. During his graduate studies, however, he became convinced that there are contradictions and discrepancies in the biblical manuscripts that could not be harmonized or reconciled:[1]

I did my very best to hold on to my faith that the Bible was the inspired word of God with no mistakes and that lasted for about two years … I realized that at the time we had over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, and no two of them are exactly alike. The scribes were changing them, sometimes in big ways, but lots of times in little ways. And it finally occurred to me that if I really thought that God had inspired this text … If he went to the trouble of inspiring the text, why didn’t he go to the trouble of preserving the text? Why did he allow scribes to change it?
I'm very familiar with Ehrman's claim of being a former Christian. His problem, and yours too apparently, is there is no such thing as a former Christian. Once a person has been born again, they can't be unborn. A child of God will always be a child of God. Ehrman was never a Christian to begin with. He may have had an emotional experience, but that does not equate as a born again believer. Having a head knowledge of Christ is not the same as having a heart knowledge. Anyone can claim to be a believer. Ehrman claims that he tried to hold on to his faith. If he were a child of God, Jesus would have held on to him: John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The Apostle Paul says that nothing can separate a believer from God: Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My devotional from Adrian Rodgers this very morning states:
Some people think you can lose your salvation once you have it. I have one truth that will dispel that idea. Whether or not you can lose your salvation depends upon how you got it.

If you were saved by your good works, then you can lose your salvation by your bad works. But God’s Word is very clear on this point. Titus 3:5 says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

How is someone saved? By grace. And if it is by grace, then you’re kept by grace. Salvation is not rooted in the merit of man, but in the mercy of God.
Therefore, based on the authority of the word of God I can confidently say Bart Ehrman was never a born again child of God.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:05 pm

SEG wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:18 pm
Chapabel wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:55 pm
You have latched on to the falsehoods that these ancient writings are forgeries or have been tampered with,
All the serious biblical scholars acknowledge that your "best" evidence for Jesus has come from a non-eyewitness (Josephus) at the end of the first century and been fiddled with and forged. The only thing in contention is how much is forged. You should know this by now. All the other secular writings come after the second century and only talk about Christians, no mention of Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth or even just "Christ". It really is piss poor evidence if you really think that your demi-god was wildly popular.

Just admit it, you've got nuthin' and plenty of it.
This is a lie. Bible scholars acknowledge the best evidence for Jesus Christ is the Bible, not secular writings. There are more manuscripts of the Bible than any other ancient writing. Your claim that these manuscripts have been fiddled with, changed, twisted etc is false. They have not. The greatest discrepancies in these manuscripts are in spelling and punctuation. The message of these manuscripts agree 100%.

As far as secular writings go, even Ehrman the atheist has presented evidence outside of the Bible and he has the backing of other scholars. Your continued claim that there are no recognized secular writings of Jesus is false. I am amazed at your refusal to accept the facts. You have shown on this thread that evidence means nothing to you. You presented video and eyewitness evidence for your bot Baba, but then you claimed it was all crap. Just be honest SEG and simply admit, you will reject every bit of evidence that supports anything Christian. Your dishonesty in this area is becoming tiresome. You do not want to discuss Christian beliefs and/or practices. You are nothing but an antagonist who wishes only to disparage Christianity and Christian believers. I'm through with this conversation. I cannot continue engaging with such a dishonest person.

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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:14 am

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Last edited by Claire on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SEG
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by SEG » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:22 am

Chapabel wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:05 pm
This is a lie. Bible scholars acknowledge the best evidence for Jesus Christ is the Bible, not secular writings.
Not if you are looking at unbiased sources. That's like saying the best evidence for Harry Potter is found in the books of J. K. Rowling.
There are more manuscripts of the Bible than any other ancient writing.
Big deal. Look at how many copies of The Lord of the Rings and the Little Red Book there are.
Your claim that these manuscripts have been fiddled with, changed, twisted etc is false. They have not. The greatest discrepancies in these manuscripts are in spelling and punctuation. The message of these manuscripts agree 100%.
That's bullshit. The short ending of Mark proves it is bullshit.
As far as secular writings go, even Ehrman the atheist has presented evidence outside of the Bible and he has the backing of other scholars. Your continued claim that there are no recognized secular writings of Jesus is false.
I've never said that and you know it.
I am amazed at your refusal to accept the facts. You have shown on this thread that evidence means nothing to you. You presented video and eyewitness evidence for your bot Baba, but then you claimed it was all crap.
I was trying to give you an education. It looks like that was futile. It also looks like your miracles are the same as Babas - bogus.
Just be honest SEG and simply admit, you will reject every bit of evidence that supports anything Christian
.
Nope, just support it with verifiable evidence. In the meantime stop calling people here fools and dishonest. You would be as big as a hypocrite as your imagined hero. He was a hypocrite just like you.

He told his followers not to call anyone a fool.
See here where he declares:
Matthew 5:22 Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Yet he often called his critics and disciples fools.
Matthew 23:17-19 New International Version (NIV)
17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Luke 11:40 New International Version (NIV)
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?

Luke 24:25 New International Version (NIV)
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Your dishonesty in this area is becoming tiresome. You do not want to discuss Christian beliefs and/or practices. You are nothing but an antagonist who wishes only to disparage Christianity and Christian believers. I'm through with this conversation. I cannot continue engaging with such a dishonest person.
Where's that mirror again?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:06 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:22 am

That's bullshit.
This seems to be your attitude towards all the evidence that there is a God; that Jesus did rise and is coming again. You are willfully blind so I will not continue casting pearls you way. Good luck SEG

Claire
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:02 pm

Chapabel wrote:I'm very familiar with Ehrman's claim of being a former Christian. His problem, and yours too apparently, is there is no such thing as a former Christian. Once a person has been born again, they can't be unborn. A child of God will always be a child of God. Ehrman was never a Christian to begin with. He may have had an emotional experience, but that does not equate as a born again believer. Having a head knowledge of Christ is not the same as having a heart knowledge. Anyone can claim to be a believer. Ehrman claims that he tried to hold on to his faith. If he were a child of God, Jesus would have held on to him: John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
In regards to John 10:28-29, He simply relays that those are to spend eternal life with God shall not experience eternal spiritual death, and that no man can prevent or change that.
Next, I'll go over your story: You said you were saved at age 10 and grew up in Church, attending every revival, but got tired of it. Then, later on in life, when you were old enough to not be forced to go, you chose to leave God, because you didn't want to be burdened down with all that "religious stuff". The entire time you were away from God you were "living like the devil". You even say there was even a small voice deep within your being that constantly reminded you that the way you were living was wrong. But, you chose to suppress and ignore that voice until you could no longer hear it. All the while at the same time knowing He was real.

Because you claim to have still had "head knowledge" Jesus exists during that period of choosing the devil over God, would you say you were still a saved, child of God because of that, and how you came back to God? I assume yes because you've said that "God will not allow His children to sin successfully".

Due to this, isn't too hasty on your part to accuse Ehrman of not being, and never having been, a saved, child of God, when he may yet come back to God same as you? Also, to say "Gd will not allow His children to sin successfully" implies free will is removed from the equation, and that the moment a person is saved they will never sin because He won't allow them to. So, if that's not the message you want to push, then don't continue on with that choice of phrasing.

And, would you say it's more grievous for an individual to claim to know The Truth, know God is real, and choose to willfully disobey Him anyway, or be someone who sins in ignorance?
Last edited by Claire on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:39 pm

Claire wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:02 pm

Due to this, isn't too hasty on your part to accuse Ehrman of not being, and never having been, a saved, child of God, when he may yet come back to God same as you? Also, to say "Gd will not allow His children to sin successfully" implies free will is removed from the equation, and that the moment a person is saved they will never sin because He won't allow them to. So, if that's not the message you want to push, then don't continue on with that choice of phrasing.
No Claire. The difference between Ehrman and myself is that at no point in my backslidden condition did I ever renounce my faith in Christ. I never doubted God’s existence nor my salvation. I knew I was a child of God even though I was not living like one. Ehrman has totally renounced his relationship with Christ which is the evidence that he never knew Christ to begin with. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are saved are kept by God. There is no way a born again believer can ever be unborn. If you were a born again believer you would understand this precept. But like Ehrman you cannot give testimony of ever being born again.

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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Claire » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:02 am

Chapabel wrote:The difference between Ehrman and myself is that at no point in my backslidden condition did I ever renounce my faith in Christ. I never doubted God’s existence nor my salvation. I knew I was a child of God even though I was not living like one. Ehrman has totally renounced his relationship with Christ which is the evidence that he never knew Christ to begin with. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are saved are kept by God. There is no way a born again believer can ever be unborn. If you were a born again believer you would understand this precept. But like Ehrman you cannot give testimony of ever being born again.
So, if an individual is born-again, they are guaranteed to go to Heaven, even if they willfully disobey God for the remainder of their lives, as long as they don't doubt God's existence and one's salvation. Well, that renders repentance unnecessary.

You've also said,

"True saving faith will manifest good work"

"Anyone can go around saying they are a born-again, blood-washed believer. But if they have no accompanying works to validate their claim, their faith is dead and not real"

"Works are the evidence, the proof, the testimony of salvation. That's all. Works come after salvation. After, not before...AFTER. Not during...AFTER."

You say sincere Faith in God is what makes one saved, and that good works come after becoming saved. That means a person may go through the ritual of becoming born-again, but its only after by their works can others know if they were truly born-again. If they weren't, then it's because bad works, or lack of good works, reflect insincere Faith in God, meaning they never were born again, and therefore makes works what a person's salvation or not is based off, which you deny is the case...

According to those beliefs of yours, during your "backslidden condition" where you willfully chose to leave God, and chose a life of "living like the devil", while still knowing God existed, you were not producing works that reflect a true saving faith, so you wouldn't be considered a child of God. Yet, you claim to have maintained your salvation, and title "child of God" because you still had Faith in God, and didn't doubt your salvation, during that period of your life...

Another time you've said,

"Anybody can do good works. It does not take the power of God to be nice and help people. That's why good works do not contribute to salvation".

If you haven't caught on to what the problem is, the Catch-22 is this:

You say true saving Faith manifests good works, but because anyone can do good works, good works don't contribute to salvation, even though being saved leads to it. And, as long as a person doesn't doubt the existence of God, or their salvation, they can do bad works without needing to repent, and still maintain their salvation. Yet, it's good works that reveal a true saving faith, but as long as a person doesn't doubt the existence of God, or their salvation, they can do bad works without needing to repent, and still maintain their salvation. Yet, it's good works that reveal a true saving Faith, but as long as a person doesn't doubt the existence of God, or their salvation, they can do bad works without needing to repent, and still maintain their salvation. Yet,...

You see where I'm going?

That's your carousel of salvation. In order to stop the bleed of contradiction, you try and control it by taking Bible verses out of context, i.e. John 10:28-29/Romans 8:38-39, etc, but you're still unsuccessful.

Also, once I asked you "...how can you tell the difference between who's saved and who's not, other than asking them if they're saved?", and you replied, "You can't tell the difference. That is the Lord's responsibility", yet here you are taking the responsibility upon yourself to say,

"Ehrman was never a Christian to begin with"
Last edited by Claire on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:27 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Chapabel
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Re: More and better miracles than Jesus

Post by Chapabel » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:10 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:02 am
Chapabel wrote:The difference between Ehrman and myself is that at no point in my backslidden condition did I ever renounce my faith in Christ. I never doubted God’s existence nor my salvation. I knew I was a child of God even though I was not living like one. Ehrman has totally renounced his relationship with Christ which is the evidence that he never knew Christ to begin with. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are saved are kept by God. There is no way a born again believer can ever be unborn. If you were a born again believer you would understand this precept. But like Ehrman you cannot give testimony of ever being born again.
So, if an individual is born-again, they are guaranteed to go to Heaven, even if they willfully disobey God for the remainder of their lives, as long as they don't doubt God's existence and one's salvation. Well that renders repentance unnecessary.
Chapabel wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
True saving faith will manifest good works.
Anyone can go around saying they are a born-again, blood-washed believer. But if they have no accompanying works to validate their claim, their faith is dead and not real.
You say sincere Faith in God is what makes one saved, and that good works come after becoming saved. That means a person may go through the ritual of becoming born-again, but its only after by their works can others know if they were truly born-again. If they weren't, then it's because bad works, or lack of good works, reflect insincere Faith in God, meaning they never were born again, and therefore makes works what a person's salvation or not is based off, which you deny is the case...

According to those beliefs of yours, during your "backslidden condition" where you willfully chose to leave God, and chose a life of "living like the devil", you were not producing works that reflect a true saving faith, so you wouldn't be considered a child of God. Yet, you claim to have maintained your salvation, and title "child of God" because you still had Faith in God, and didn't doubt your salvation, during that period of your life...

If you haven't caught on to what the problem is, the Catch-22 is this:

You say true saving Faith manifests good works, but as long as a person doesn't doubt the existence of God or their salvation, they can do bad works without needing to take accountability, and still maintain their salvation, yet it's good works that reveal someone is saved, but as long as a person doesn't doubt the existence of God or their salvation, they can do bad works, without needing to take accountability, and still maintain their salvation, yet...

You see where I'm going?

That's your carousel of salvation. In order to stop the bleed of contradiction, you try and control it by taking Bible verses out of context, i.e. John 10:28-29/Romans 8:38-39, etc, but you're still unsuccessful.
This entire senseless rambling of yours reveals your unfamiliarity with God’s grace.

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