Where the **** was Paul?

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Claire
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Claire » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:42 am

Humanguy wrote:
Claire wrote:
CaptainHowdy wrote:Think about it like this: I don't have God's cell phone number but he does have mine. Why am I responsible for trying to call him?
God's always calling you, but He's not going to force you to pick up the phone.

When you strengthen your body, the more physical you can be, and as long as you eat certain foods, it promotes that healthy, strong body. When you strengthen your soul, the more in tune with the spiritual you become, and as long as you do what's good for it, then you promote that healthy, strong soul.

And, just as there is plenty of tools to help a person with their physical body, there's plenty of tools in the world to help a person with their spiritual side.

Have you ever read or watched an advertisement to a gym where they promised you positive results? And, because you believed in what they were selling, signed up? Did you promise your trainer you'd be committed to the program? Whether away or present at the gym, did you put in the effort to follow their every instruction for the benefit of your body? Did you never abandon your faith and hope when you didn't see the results when you wanted? When you finally reached every goal, because you had come to learn what's truly good for your body and why, did you choose to maintain the lifestyle that got you to that point?

Are you willing to dedicate time, patience, hope, and faith into the strengthening of your soul, as you would your body, so as to function better on a spiritual level? And, bear in mind, not everyone in a gym was at the same physical level when they started, and not everyone has the same obstacles, or areas of weakness to improve, so it'll take longer for some, and different equipment will need to be used, etc. No person's physical body or journey is identical. But, they're all aiming for the same end game, which is to be healthy and strong. It's the same with souls.
What if you see no reason to be convinced that you have a soul?
That doesn't mean people don't have a soul. Even if you currently believe you don't have a soul, it doesn't mean you still can't do the things that will strengthen and promote the spiritual side. Despite what you currently believe, if you want to believe and understand what you currently don't, then you'll make use of the tools available to help you achieve that goal. The more you do it, the more you'll be in tune with the spiritual aspect of things, and will come to know and understand what you didn't before.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:13 am

Claire wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm
It's the same with souls.
Except there is plenty of evidence that all your body parts exist and no evidence at all of a soul. There's not even a decent definition of a soul. Re God not bothering to call atheists, there is no evidence that he speaks audibly to ardent believers either. Why is he hiding?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

Claire
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Claire » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:43 am

SEG wrote:Except there is plenty of evidence that all your body parts exist and no evidence at all of a soul. There's not even a decent definition of a soul. Re God not bothering to call atheists, there is no evidence that he speaks audibly to ardent believers either. Why is he hiding?
As I said to hg, even if you currently believe a soul doesn't exist, if you want to become aware of and understand what you currently don't, then you'll make use of the tools available to help you achieve that goal. The more you do, the more you'll be in tune with the spiritual aspect of things.
Last edited by Claire on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

captain howdy
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by captain howdy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm

Og3 wrote:
captain howdy wrote:What you're asking me to do is to lower my standards of evidence. People, believers and many non-believers alike, tend to speak about searching for evidence of God as if they were looking for evidence of phlogiston. But this is the wrong way to view the issue. God isn't some element on the periodic table we have to go hunt down, God is an intelligent agent quite capable of speaking for himself and needs no human spokesman.
If you think I'm asking you to lower your standards and search for Phlogiston, then I have to wonder if you've read a single word I've written.

I'm asking you to apply the SAME standards of evidence to God as to everything else. I gave the example above of someone coming to me with a proof that 2+2=296. That would take a pretty powerful proof, let me tell you. Most people would think that I would be justified in simply saying that the conclusion is absurd and throwing the man off my porch... And I won't say that i might not do that, some days. But the principle by which I try to live would require me to try to know what's wrong with his conclusion.

Why does he think that, and what's wrong with his thinking? Ah, here, he's divided by zero. Case closed.

That's what I'm asking for.
You're submitting Christian scripture as evidence of your truth claims that God exists and wants to contact me and asking that I evaluate it with an open heart and a level playing field. After some consideration, I must decline your request. The reason for this is because I have already evaluated your claim and rejected it as false. If you assert that you are in contact with an extraterrestrial the best way to validate such a claim is for the extraterrestrial himself to directly validate it. If you claim to have in your possession a genie in a magic lamp the best way to validate such a claim is for the genie himself to directly validate it. If you claim you are in direct contact with Beethoven the best way to validate such a claim is for Beethoven himself to directly validate it. You claim to be in direct contact with Jesus of Nazareth, an historical figure from 2000 years ago. The best way to validate such a claim is for Jesus himself to directly validate it, and he hasn't. Carl Sagan said claims require evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This has been my experience, so I'm inclined to agree with him. The evidential bar I've set applies to all claims of the type you're making and I think it's quite reasonable. But Jesus has failed to appear to validate your claim so your claim has failed. The reason I decline to evaluate your literature (the scripture you want me to read) is because once a truth claim has failed due to lack of applicable evidence (direct confirmation by agent in question) further attempts to validate the claim that do not meet the evidential standard (such as scripture) are inapplicable.

At some point the believer has to stop talking and God has to start talking, and as far as I can discern He isn't. Until He does, nothing else matters. As soon as he does, I'll see you in church.

Claire
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Claire » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:46 pm

captain howdy wrote:At some point the believer has to stop talking and God has to start talking, and as far as I can discern He isn't. Until He does, nothing else matters. As soon as he does, I'll see you in church.
Let's say you heard about a fitness program that guaranteed results you wanted, and read numerous positive reviews from current subscribers, so you signed up. But, when you didn't start seeing results when and how you wanted, you said to your trainer, "Look, uh, we've reached the point where I need to stop working out, and you need to start doing your job, and as far as I can discern you're not. Until you do, nothing else matters, and as soon as you do, I'll sign up again and come back to the gym".

A trainer can't do their job with you unless you're present and cooperating with them. They aren't going to hunt you down, drag you back to the gym against your will, force you to understand the process, force you to develop patience, force you to use the necessary equipment, force you to see the progress you're making, or force you to maintain faith in the program and in them, even during the times things aren't going how you want, etc.

If you choose to go back to the gym, you would need to put in the necessary work involved, and stay committed if you believe in the trainer and the program. And, to avoid setting yourself up to fail, you would also need to understand that you and everyone else committed to the same program didn't all begin at the same physical fitness level and don't have identical bodies. So, while everyone is aiming for the same goal, not everyone is going to go about it the same way, or reach it at the same time.
captain howdy wrote:God is an intelligent agent quite capable of speaking for himself and needs no human spokesman.
He has spoken and does speak, and has also instructed His followers to continue practicing and spreading His teachings. You just haven't heard Him speak audibly to you, but that doesn't mean it'll never happen. You seem to have chosen to assume it will never happen because you've concluded God doesn't exist. Yet, you seem to think it's all it would it take for you to believe, it's that easy.

Okay.

So, imagine you were wrong and God exists, and Jesus manifested before you and started speaking audibly right now. Afterwards, you wouldn't try to reason yourself out of believing it was in fact Jesus? You wouldn't ask yourself, "How could someone I've already concluded to not exist have been speaking to me?" or "Because God doesn't exist, it could've been a hallucination, or a symptom of some new unidentified disease, etc" or "Why would I want to become as dumb as the stupid Christians?"

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:43 pm

Claire wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:43 am
SEG wrote:Except there is plenty of evidence that all your body parts exist and no evidence at all of a soul. There's not even a decent definition of a soul. Re God not bothering to call atheists, there is no evidence that he speaks audibly to ardent believers either. Why is he hiding?
As I said to hg, even if you currently believe a soul doesn't exist, if you want to become aware of and understand what you currently don't, then you'll make use of the tools available to help you achieve that goal. The more you do, the more you'll be in tune with the spiritual aspect of things.
What happens if you do all that and use the tools constantly and nothing happens?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:51 pm

Let me guess, my faith wasn't strong enough? It must be me, it can't be me talking to myself? Hey, wait a minute, it WAS me talking to myself! God doesn't exist! Whew, all the guilt has gone, and now I'm finally in tune with my spirituality, whatever the fuck THAT is!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:59 pm

captain howdy wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm
You're submitting Christian scripture as evidence of your truth claims that God exists and wants to contact me and asking that I evaluate it with an open heart and a level playing field. After some consideration, I must decline your request. The reason for this is because I have already evaluated your claim and rejected it as false. If you assert that you are in contact with an extraterrestrial the best way to validate such a claim is for the extraterrestrial himself to directly validate it. If you claim to have in your possession a genie in a magic lamp the best way to validate such a claim is for the genie himself to directly validate it. If you claim you are in direct contact with Beethoven the best way to validate such a claim is for Beethoven himself to directly validate it. You claim to be in direct contact with Jesus of Nazareth, an historical figure from 2000 years ago. The best way to validate such a claim is for Jesus himself to directly validate it, and he hasn't. Carl Sagan said claims require evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This has been my experience, so I'm inclined to agree with him. The evidential bar I've set applies to all claims of the type you're making and I think it's quite reasonable. But Jesus has failed to appear to validate your claim so your claim has failed. The reason I decline to evaluate your literature (the scripture you want me to read) is because once a truth claim has failed due to lack of applicable evidence (direct confirmation by agent in question) further attempts to validate the claim that do not meet the evidential standard (such as scripture) are inapplicable.

At some point the believer has to stop talking and God has to start talking, and as far as I can discern He isn't. Until He does, nothing else matters. As soon as he does, I'll see you in church.
Yes, it's the same as your child asking you if Santa Claus exists. You don't ask him to send a letter to Mrs Claus at the North Pole. Unless you want to continue the lie.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:04 pm

BTW, Captain, there is no need to capitalise the H in "he". Even their own KJV Bible doesn't do that and it's got nothing to do with respect.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

Og3
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:32 pm

captain howdy wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:13 pm
Og3 wrote:
captain howdy wrote:What you're asking me to do is to lower my standards of evidence. People, believers and many non-believers alike, tend to speak about searching for evidence of God as if they were looking for evidence of phlogiston. But this is the wrong way to view the issue. God isn't some element on the periodic table we have to go hunt down, God is an intelligent agent quite capable of speaking for himself and needs no human spokesman.
If you think I'm asking you to lower your standards and search for Phlogiston, then I have to wonder if you've read a single word I've written.

I'm asking you to apply the SAME standards of evidence to God as to everything else. I gave the example above of someone coming to me with a proof that 2+2=296. That would take a pretty powerful proof, let me tell you. Most people would think that I would be justified in simply saying that the conclusion is absurd and throwing the man off my porch... And I won't say that i might not do that, some days. But the principle by which I try to live would require me to try to know what's wrong with his conclusion.

Why does he think that, and what's wrong with his thinking? Ah, here, he's divided by zero. Case closed.

That's what I'm asking for.
You're submitting Christian scripture as evidence of your truth claims that God exists and wants to contact me and asking that I evaluate it with an open heart and a level playing field. After some consideration, I must decline your request.
I am not claiming that it is evidence. I am claiming that, read with an open heart on a level playing field, it will provide its own evidence. You want a phone call -- your analogy -- so you must be willing to answer the phone.
The reason for this is because I have already evaluated your claim and rejected it as false.
And I once analyzed the idea that a thinking man could own a Toyota car and not be an idiot, and rejected it as false. Later I was forced to rethink this idea, and discovered it to be true. So having once closed your mind, you can never submit the question for re-examination? You can never re-evaluate an idea, once it stops being "pending?"

Speaking of which, I thought Christianity was in your "pending" file. If it's now in the "Definitely not and I won't hear anything about it again" file, what changed?
If you assert that you are in contact with an extraterrestrial the best way to validate such a claim is for the extraterrestrial himself to directly validate it. If you claim to have in your possession a genie in a magic lamp the best way to validate such a claim is for the genie himself to directly validate it. If you claim you are in direct contact with Beethoven the best way to validate such a claim is for Beethoven himself to directly validate it. You claim to be in direct contact with Jesus of Nazareth, an historical figure from 2000 years ago. The best way to validate such a claim is for Jesus himself to directly validate it, and he hasn't.
Two arguments are made here: Best evidence, and "He hasn't."

Yes, direct interaction with Jesus of Nazareth would be the best evidence. But would you accept that evidence if you saw it? Or would you believe you had had a seizure, or seen an illusion, or suffered a delusion, or experienced a psychotic break, or ... Once long ago, I asked you what evidence would be sufficient. If I recall, you wanted a complete override of your free will, forcing you to believe against your will.

To repeat the above analogy -- you can't expect a phone call if you're not willing to answer the phone.
Carl Sagan said claims require evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This has been my experience, so I'm inclined to agree with him.
Actually, it's a quite absurd statement. Simple ordinary evidence will surely suffice. If someone claims he has a motor that runs on magnets, all he has to do is to show me the motor, and let me take it apart. If you claim to have a visitor from the planet Vulcan, cell-phone videos of the landing, along with a bit of his technology -- those would serve nicely as evidence.

Any claim requires evidence. "Extraordinary" is merely a pejorative thrown in to justify refusing to think about it.
The evidential bar I've set applies to all claims of the type you're making and I think it's quite reasonable.
Why not apply it to ALL claims whatsoever? THAT would be a level playing field. Your girlfriend says that she loves you. You say, "That's extraordinary. Show me extraordinary proof of that claim." She says something unprintable and burns your phone number. Ooops.

The box of breakfast cereal claims to provide 36% of your daily recommended intake for iron. So you take it to a lab and say, "Prove it."

The dish detergent says it will make your dishes sparkle. You call the company and say "Prove it." They say, "Wash your dishes and you'll see." You say, "why should I have to do the work? You're the one making the claim."

My point -- and I do have one -- is that you need to have ONE standard for all proof. Otherwise, you're picking and choosing what you will or won't believe, and it's not an exercise of logic and reason, but and exercise of choice and will. You choose to reject the evidence for Christ; you justify it by claiming a HIGHER standard for "That Sort of Claim." Sorry, Cap'n, that's not reason. It's dogmatism.
But Jesus has failed to appear to validate your claim so your claim has failed.
Again, phone call analogy.
The reason I decline to evaluate your literature (the scripture you want me to read) is because once a truth claim has failed due to lack of applicable evidence (direct confirmation by agent in question) further attempts to validate the claim that do not meet the evidential standard (such as scripture) are inapplicable.
Oh, that's a lovely rule. Unfortunately, it's just as abitrary as the 10th rule of the Pythagoreans, namely, "Assist a man who is loading freight, but never when he is unloading freight."

I mean, if you choose arbitrarily not to believe in God, then so be it. That's your right. But let's not be absurd and pretend that an arbitrary choice can be justified by stacking the deck and closing your ears. If you want to make an arbitrary choice, great, but please don't insult us by pretending it's logical.
At some point the believer has to stop talking and God has to start talking, and as far as I can discern He isn't. Until He does, nothing else matters. As soon as he does, I'll see you in church.
Again, your analogy -- you have to answer the phone.

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