Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

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Chapabel
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Chapabel » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:05 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:00 pm
Let's get back to the OP. If you say,
"There were two cleansing of the Temple. One at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and the other the week before His death."

How did Jesus escape the Roman's wrath after the first cleansing? Where was Paul the Christian Persecutor or any other keeper of the peace?
Roman soldiers were not allowed inside the Temple area so they had no clue what was going on inside. Jesus was confronted, however, by Jews demanding He declare under what authority He cleansed the Temple. Jesus' actions did not go unchallenged by the authorities. The probable reason He wasn't arrested was due to the large support He had from the common people who were tired of being cheated and ripped off by the money changers and merchants who were price gouging during Passover season. To arrest Jesus then would have caused a riot the chief priest and other leaders were not willing to cause.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Chapabel » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:08 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:31 am
Claire wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:53 pm
SEG wrote:Let's get back to the OP. If you say,
"There were two cleansing of the Temple. One at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and the other the week before His death."

How did Jesus escape the Roman's wrath after the first cleansing? Where was Paul the Christian Persecutor or any other keeper of the peace?
SEG wrote:Also in John he gets armed with a whip (from who knows where)...
Jesus gave Maria Valtorta a vision of what took place at the first cleansing of the temple in full, and she describes what she saw and heard, including how Jesus got the whip. You can read here.
That's even more ridiculous than the gospel story see!
Just a note of advice for you SEG...avoid foolish exchanges with unlearned and ignorant religious people. You'll end up banging your head on a wall if you continue.

Claire
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Claire » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:33 pm

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Let's get back to the OP. If you say,
"There were two cleansing of the Temple. One at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and the other the week before His death."

How did Jesus escape the Roman's wrath after the first cleansing? Where was Paul the Christian Persecutor or any other keeper of the peace?
SEG wrote:Also in John he gets armed with a whip (from who knows where)...
Jesus gave Maria Valtorta a vision of what took place at the first cleansing of the temple in full, and she describes what she saw and heard, including how Jesus got the whip. You can read here.
SEG wrote:That's even more ridiculous than the gospel story see!
It's the same gospel, hers is just a more detailed account.

Claire
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Claire » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:33 am

The cleansing of the Temple occurred twice. The first took place early on in Jesus's first year of ministry, and in John 2:13-22 we read his account of what occurred. The second during the end of Jesus's third year of ministry, about a week before His crucifixion, which was recorded by Matthew (Matthew 21:12-17), Mark 11:12-20, and Luke (Luke 19:45-47). All brief but sufficient. Maria Valtorta was also a witness to what took place both instances, via visions, and her accounts, while more detailed, do not contradict what was said by the aforementioned apostles:

The First Cleansing of the Temple
Brief recap: A confrontation between Jesus and a lamb vendor prompted one of three rabbis to initiate a conversation with Jesus asking Him,

"Are You a doctor?"
"Yes, I am."
"What do you teach?"
"This I teach: to make the House of God a house of prayer, and not an usury, or a marketplace. That is what I teach."

Then, Jesus scattered coins, overturned benches and tables, made the whip, and drove out the money changers and merchants. All the while those who had been taken advantage of were now laughing and shouting at the escaping usurers.

[In John 2:15 we read, " And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords...", and that's true. Maria Valtorta described specifically what took place: "He then snatches from the hands of the stable boys some ropes with which they were holding oxen, sheep, and lambs, and He makes a very hard lash, in which the slip-knots are real scourges:..."]

Afterwards, the priests, rabbis, and Pharisees gathered together asking Him, "Who are you? How dare you do that, upsetting the prescribed ceremonies? From which school are You? We do not know You, neither do we know where You come from."

If you want to read Jesus's responses in full then click here. But, what He said left them, and the others remaining in the yard speechless. Then, Jesus left to another yard, separated from that one only by a porch, followed by His friends.

Source: https://archive.org/details/Volume1OfTh ... /page/n163

The Second Cleansing of the Temple
Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey, going around the enclosure of the Temple, dismounting at the northern side, near the Antonia, and went into the Temple. Maria described it was "As if He wished to let people see He was not hiding from the ruling powers, feeling that He had always behaved in an innocent way".

"The first court of the Temple shows the usual uproar of money changers and vendors of doves, sparrows, and lambs, with the only difference that the vendors have been left alone, because everybody has gone to see Jesus. And, Jesus enters in His purple garment, and He looks around at the market, and at a group of Pharisees and scribes, who are watching Him from a porch.

His eyes are flashing with anger. He rushes to the center of the court. An unexpected leap that looks like a flight. The flight of a flame, because His garment is as bright as a flame in the sunshine flooding the court. And, in His voice as powerful as thunder He says: "Away from the house of My Father! This is no place for usury or markets. It's written: "My house will be called the house of prayer!" So, why have you turned into a robbers' den this house, in which the Name of the Lord is invoked? Go away! Leave My House clean! That it may not happen to you, that instead of using ropes, that I may strike you with the thunderbolts of Heavenly wrath! Go away! Get out, you thieves, swindlers, lewd people, murderers, impious persons, idolaters of the worst idolatry, that of one's proud ego, corrupters, and liars! Out! Get out! Or, the Most High God, I warn you will sweep away this place for good, and will take vengeance upon all the people".

He does not repeat the lashing of the last time, but seeing that the merchants and money changers are slow in obeying, He goes to the nearest bench and turns it over spreading scales and money on the ground.

The vendors and money changers make haste and carry out Jesus's order, after witnessing the first example. And, Jesus shouts after them: "And, how many times shall I have to say that this must not be a place of filth, but a place of prayer?" And, He looks at those of the Temple who, obeying the orders of the Pontiff, do not make any gesture of reprisal.

After cleansing the court, Jesus goes towards the porches where blind, paralytic, mute, crippled, and other sick people are gathered and invoking Him at the top of their voices.

He doesn't cure the many sick people one by one, but makes a wide gesture with His hand, and grace and health descend from it upon the poor wretches who stand up completely cured with cries of joy that mingle with those of the many children, who are pressing against Him repeating: "Glory, glory to the Son of David! Hosanna to Jesus of Nazareth, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords!"

Some Pharisees, with feigned deference, shout to Him: "Master! Do You hear them? These children are saying what's not to be said. Reproach them! That they may keep quiet". Jesus replied, "Why? The king prophet, the king of My stock, did he not say: "You made the perfect praise flow from the mouths of children and sucklings to confuse Your enemies?" Have you not read these words of the psalmist? (cf. Psalm 8:2) Let children sing My praises. They are prompted to sing them by their angels, who see My Father incessantly and are aware of His secrets, which they suggest to these innocents. And, now let me go and pray the Lord", and passing in front of the people, He goes into the court of Israel to pray. Later, coming out through another gate, going along the Sheep Pool, He leaves the town and goes back to the hill of the Mount of Olives.'' [The way taken to Mount of Olives was towards Bethany (Bethania)]

Source: https://archive.org/stream/Volume1OfThe ... /cleansing
SEG wrote:Cleansing of the Temple – Intertextuality Overturns the Consensus
JANUARY 13, 2019 BY RATIONALREVO

The main thrust of that article was that it was cribbed from the book of Hosea, starting from the cursing of the fig tree followed by “Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious. The story is contrived for a figurative meaning and not historical. If you say it was, how did Jesus get away with the first episode without being stopped, arrested or killed? Where was Paul, the failed Christian persecutor?
In regards to Hosea 9, it was a foreshadowing. And, in both instances of the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, roman soldiers weren't present. And, in the first, all those who opposed Jesus were driven out by Him, leaving the cowardly priests, rabbis, and Pharisees, and the victims of the money changers and merchants speechless, because they couldn't refute what He had told them. In the second, the group of Pharisees and scribes, obeying the orders of the Pontiff, did not make any gesture of reprisal. And, Paul wasn't arresting and persecuting Christians at that time.

On Palm Sunday, after the cleansing of the second Temple in Jerusalem, Jesus and His followers left for the hill of the Mount of Olives, or the Field of the Galileans, which is on Mount of Olives, on the way to Bethany (Bethania). And, it was after Jesus left Jerusalem that He cursed the fig tree (Mark 11:12-20), and before He went to the temple of Bethany (not to cleanse) to pray, then to the court where the rabbis teach, and eventually spoke the parable mentioned in Luke 13:6-9: see here. So, the error in Mark 11 was his timeline of events: he placed the cursing of the fig before the second cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, when it occurred after the second cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, but before the entering of the temple in Bethany on the Monday before Passover.
Last edited by Claire on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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SEG
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by SEG » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:39 am

Chapabel wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:08 pm
Just a note of advice for you SEG...avoid foolish exchanges with unlearned and ignorant religious people. You'll end up banging your head on a wall if you continue.
At least with MV we know who wrote her version of this nonsense. Come to think of it, I had a vision from a 2,000 year old dead Jew that's not really dead but the son of the creator of the universe (that's really him and another ghost) only last night. He gave me a fuller version of the full version. Wanna hear it?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Chapabel » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:12 pm

SEG wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:39 am
Chapabel wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:08 pm
Just a note of advice for you SEG...avoid foolish exchanges with unlearned and ignorant religious people. You'll end up banging your head on a wall if you continue.
At least with MV we know who wrote her version of this nonsense. Come to think of it, I had a vision from a 2,000 year old dead Jew that's not really dead but the son of the creator of the universe (that's really him and another ghost) only last night. He gave me a fuller version of the full version. Wanna hear it?
If you received a vision from Christ and you are still not a believer, then the vision wasn’t from Christ. It may have been from your spiritual father, but it wasn’t Jesus.

Claire
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Claire » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:46 am

Chapabel wrote:
SEG wrote:Come to think of it, I had a vision from a 2,000 year old dead Jew that's not really dead but the son of the creator of the universe (that's really him and another ghost) only last night. He gave me a fuller version of the full version. Wanna hear it?
If you received a vision from Christ and you are still not a believer, then the vision wasn’t from Christ. It may have been from your spiritual father, but it wasn’t Jesus.
No, you believe God no longer gives visions to anyone, believers or not. And, who are you to say God doesn't give visions to people? On what do you base that He doesn't?
Last edited by Claire on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SEG
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by SEG » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:12 pm

If you received a vision from Christ and you are still not a believer, then the vision wasn’t from Christ. It may have been from your spiritual father, but it wasn’t Jesus.
How do you know that? I may be the ideal candidate as a persecutor of Christians, like someone else you know.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Chapabel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:31 pm

SEG wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:00 pm
Chapabel wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:12 pm

If you received a vision from Christ and you are still not a believer, then the vision wasn’t from Christ. It may have been from your spiritual father, but it wasn’t Jesus.
How do you know that? I may be the ideal candidate as a persecutor of Christians, like someone else you know.
You might have received a vision to persecute Christians. But again, it was from your spiritual father. Not Christ.

Claire
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Re: Why the Cleansing of the Temple wasn't historical

Post by Claire » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:25 pm

Chapabel wrote:You might have received a vision to persecute Christians. But again, it was from your spiritual father. Not Christ.
In regards to God, not satan, you believe He no longer gives visions to anyone, believers or not. On what do you base that He doesn't?

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