C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

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Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Fri May 10, 2019 7:32 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:17 am
Og3 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:28 am
Wow. I would have expected the atheists to be a bit more original in their justifications.
Don't lump me in with the other atheists, what I did was my fault alone. I went a bit overboard and yeah it was plagiarised. I did read it though and the arguments against Lewis are solid.
It increases my respect for you that you can admit it, and moreover, that you indemnify the other atheists.
Argument 1. He pre-supposes God
Actually, to that point, he does not. He himself says, on page 34 (Bk1, Ch.4) :
Lewis wrote: Do not suppose that I am going faster than I really am. I am not yet within 100 miles of the God of Christian Theology. All I have got to is a Something which is directing the universe and which appears in me as a law urging me to do right and making me feel responsible and uncomfortable when I do wrong.
The part about directing the universe comes from a preceding discussion of the fact that rocks obey laws of some sort, and that this feeling within him, the "third thing" which decides between the other two choices, seems to be that same sort of a law.
Argument 2. He never gives a definition of a god
To this point, he's not talking about a god, much less the God of Christian Theology.
Argument 3. He doesn't give a reason how his Moral Law escapes the Euthyphro dilemma
To this point, he hasn't personified the law, thus Euthyphyro does not apply to it. So this, from whoever suggested it, is merely an attempt to derail the discussion before Lewis completes his point.
Argument 4. His Moral Law describes what human beings ought to do, which invokes the is/ought problem
Tell you what, SEG, since you've read these arguments, from whatever unnamed source, and have agreed with them, restate the is/ought argument into your own words. Then tell us where it disagrees with what Lewis is saying about the "third thing" that tells him which of his other impulses is the one to follow.

That way we won't be arguing with wikipedia: we'll be discussing it with you, as we is/ought to do.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 11, 2019 1:50 am

Og3 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:32 pm
Argument 1. He pre-supposes God
Actually, to that point, he does not. He himself says, on page 34 (Bk1, Ch.4)
He doesn't absolve himself from saying it's a "Something", it's crystal clear that he is talking here about the Christian God, but he is pretending to appear neutral, then springing it on us later like a well used trap.
The part about directing the universe comes from a preceding discussion of the fact that rocks obey laws of some sort, and that this feeling within him, the "third thing" which decides between the other two choices, seems to be that same sort of a law.
But he never explains why the atheist world view on why there doesn't need to be a supernatural lawgiver is wrong.
Argument 2. He never gives a definition of a god
To this point, he's not talking about a god, much less the God of Christian Theology.
Maybe not at that point, but he is saying that it must be something outside of the natural law (which implies a supernatural force) and he rolls this out later as a god that he never defines.
Argument 3. He doesn't give a reason how his Moral Law escapes the Euthyphro dilemma
To this point, he hasn't personified the law, thus Euthyphyro does not apply to it. So this, from whoever suggested it, is merely an attempt to derail the discussion before Lewis completes his point.
Again, he is holding his solution up his sleeve and when he pulls it out, he doesn't give any reason to explain away Euthyphyro.
Argument 4. His Moral Law describes what human beings ought to do, which invokes the is/ought problem
Tell you what, SEG, since you've read these arguments, from whatever unnamed source, and have agreed with them, restate the is/ought argument into your own words.
Sure. The "is" part is descriptive, like we as humans eat meat. The "ought" is prescriptive, telling us what we must do or ought to do as in "we are meat eaters as humans, thus we should all eat meat."
Then tell us where it disagrees with what Lewis is saying about the "third thing" that tells him which of his other impulses is the one to follow.
Ok, here is an example in book 1 chapter 1:
You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to—whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first.
Except that in our society many of us have looked up to people who have succeeded in business in our capitalist society by being selfish and not frittering away accumulated wealth.
Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.
Here's where you are allowed to do that by God:
Deuteronomy 21:11-13 New International Version (NIV)
11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
or here is a good story how Sampson got to selfishly have his wife:
Judges 14:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Samson’s Marriage
14 Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. 2 When he returned, he said to his father and mother, “I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife.”

3 His father and mother replied, “Isn’t there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?”

But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me. She’s the right one for me.”
and later in the same book here's another way to garner any wife you liked:
Judges 21:19-25 New International Version (NIV)
19 But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”

23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.

25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.
That way we won't be arguing with wikipedia: we'll be discussing it with you, as we is/ought to do.
Cool, how did I go?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Sat May 11, 2019 10:50 am

SEG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:17 am
Og3 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:28 am
Wow. I would have expected the atheists to be a bit more original in their justifications.
Don't lump me in with the other atheists, what I did was my fault alone. I went a bit overboard and yeah it was plagiarised. I did read it though and the arguments against Lewis are solid.
That's well admitted but the argument you copied is not solid and it can now be shown that you do not really agree with it. The argument is that Lewis is advising people to be silent over certain issues. It is then argued that any suggestion of being silent over something pertinent to an argument is to encourage lying because being silent over something pertinent to an argument is lying. Now I would not agree; I would say lying is saying something known to be false with the intent to deceive. So when you said the ideas you had presented apart from quotes were your own you were saying something you knew to be false with the intention of deceiving; that is you were lying. However just presenting arguments without mentioning their provenance, while it could be classed as mildly deceptive by a purist, is not really lying. So now there are two choices, admit that the argument against Lewis on the grounds that he encourages people to lie has failed or concede that you were a lier from the beginning in that you did not openly declare your source. So the irony is that either you were that eager to encourage honesty that you lied in order to do so or you are not really all that concerned with truth or honesty but just want to win arguments.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 11, 2019 2:08 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:50 am
That's well admitted but the argument you copied is not solid and it can now be shown that you do not really agree with it.
Of course I agree with it, but we have moved on from there. Here is my summary of the the main reasons that I reject his main arguments.
Argument 1. He pre-supposes God
Argument 2. He never gives a definition of a god
Argument 3. He doesn't give a reason how his Moral Law escapes the Euthyphro dilemma
Argument 4. His Moral Law describes what human beings ought to do, which invokes the is/ought problem
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Chapabel » Sat May 11, 2019 2:44 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm
Chapabel wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:04 pm
Of course I have. Several times. Wonderful book to read. I highly recommend it
I highly recommend that you read this, it may change your mind about it being reliable:
Genesis: Contradiction List
When was heaven created?
The two contradictory creation accounts. 1:1-2:3, 2:4-25
Who created heaven and earth? 1:1
How long did creation take? 1:3-2:3, 2:4
When did God divide light from darkness? 1:4-5, 1:16-19
Were plants created before or after humans? 1:11, 2:4-7
When were the stars made? 1:16-19
From what were the fowls created? 1:20-21, 2:19
From what were the animals created? 1:20, 2:19
Were humans created before or after the other animals? 1:25-26, 2:7, 2:18-22
How many gods are there? 1:26, 3:22, 11:7
When was Eve created? 1:27, 2:20-22
Did God originally create humans male and female? 1:27, 2:18-22
Is childbearing sinful? 1:28
May Adam eat from any tree? 1:29, 2:17
Does God work on the Sabbath? 2:2-3
Is marriage a good thing? 2:18
Is wisdom a good thing? 3:6
Doe God have a body? 3:8
Does God know and see everything? 3:8, 4:14, 4:16, 11:5, 18:9, 18:17, 18:20-21, 22:12, 32:27
Is everyone descended from Adam and Eve? 3:20
Does God respect anyone? 4:4
Does God desire animal sacrifices? 4:4, 8:20-21, 15:9-10
What became of Cain? 4:12
Was Enoch the sixth or seventh from Adam? 5:3-18
Does everyone die? 5:24
Did Enoch die? 5:24
Has anyone ever ascended into heaven? 5:24
Who was Noah's youngest son? 5:32, 6:10, 7:13, 9:18, 9:22-24, 10:1
How many sons did God have? 6:2
What is the human life span? 6:3, 9:29, 11:10-32, 25:7, 25:17
Does God repent? 6:6-7
Has there ever been a just person? 6:9
Has there ever been a righteous person? 7:1
To kill or not to kill 7:4
When did Noah enter the ark? 7:7-10, 7:11-13
How many animals of each kind did Noah take into the ark? 6:19-20, 7:2-3, 7:8-9, 7:15
How long did the flood last? 7:17, 7:24, 8:3
Did everyone die in the flood? 7:21-23
How long was the ark afloat? 8:4-5
When did the earth dry after the flood? 8:13-14
Will God curse the earth? 8:21
What kind of animals may we eat? 9:3
Is it OK to eat blood? 9:4
Are we punished for the sins of others? 9:20-25, 20:18
How many languages were there before the Tower of Babel was built? 10:5, 20, 31, 11:1
Who was the father of Salah? 10:24, 11:12
Did God call Abraham before or after he moved to Haran? 11:31-12:4
How old was Terah when he died? 11:26, 11:32, 12:4
How old was Abraham when he left Haran? 11:26, 11:32, 12:4
Is God the author of confusion? 11:7
How old was Abram when Ishmael was born? 11:26, 11:32, 16:16
Can God be seen? 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 26:24, 32:30, 35:1, 35:7, 35:9
When was the city of Dan named? 14:14
Who owns the earth? 14:19, 22
How long was the Egyptian Captivity? 15:13
What are the borders of Israel? 15:18
How many sons did Abraham have? 16:15, 22:2, 22:12, 25:2
Is circumcision required? 17:7, 17:10, 17:13, 17:19
Is incest forbidden? 17:16, 20:12
How old was Ishmael when he was abandoned by Abraham? 17:25, 21:14-18
Did Sarah have faith that she would conceive? 18:10-15
Is anything too hard for the Lord? 18:14
Was Lot a righteous man? 19:8, 30-36
Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? 19:13, 19:24
Did Lot's daughters think God had killed every man except Lot? 19:21-22, 30, 31
Is incest forbidden? 19:30-36
How many generations from Abraham to Moses? 21:1-3, 25:21-26, 35:23
Is it OK to take oaths? 21:23-24, 24:2, 9, 31:53, 47:31
Who named Beersheba? 21:31, 26:33
Does God tempt people? 22:2
Does God approve of human sacrifices? 22:2-13
Did Abraham know God's name? 22:14
Was Keturah Abraham's wife or concubine? 25:1
Will there be many Jews? 26:4
Who was Bashemath's father? 26:34, 36:2-3
Who was Laban's father? 28:5, 29:5
When did Jacob rename Luz to Bethel? 28:18-19, 33:18, 35:6-7
Who was Anah? 36:2, 36:14, 36:20, 36:24
Who was Korah's father? 36:14-16
Who brought Joseph into Egypt? 37:28, 37:36, 39:1
Where did Joseph's brothers find the missing money? 42:27-35, 43:21
How old was Benjamin when his clan migrated to Egypt? 44:20, 22
Was Mahli the son of Levi? 46:11
How many descendants of Jacob and Leah went to Egypt with Jacob? 46:15
Will God destroy those that intermarry? 46:20
Who were the sons of Benjamin? 46:21
Were Naaman and Ard the sons or the grandsons of Benjamin? 46:21
How many were in Jacob's family when they came into Egypt? 47:27
What were the twelve tribes of Israel? 49:3-27
Where was Jacob buried? 50:13
Tell you what SEG, you start a new thread and present each one of these supposed contradictions and I will educate you. I will not, however, allow you to simply cut and paste and expect me to answer this mass of ignorance all at once. So what do you say Sport, are you ready to be schooled?

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Sat May 11, 2019 7:19 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:08 pm
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:50 am
That's well admitted but the argument you copied is not solid and it can now be shown that you do not really agree with it.
Of course I agree with it, but we have moved on from there.
If you agree with it then it thoroughly condems you. You pretended to be concerned with honesty so as to have a stick to beat Lewis with while being, by the very standard you were defending, thoroughly dishonest. I am not surprised you want to move on.
Here is my summary of the the main reasons that I reject his main arguments.
Argument 1. He pre-supposes God
No he doesn't.
Argument 2. He never gives a definition of a god
Nothing in his argument needs one.
Argument 3. He doesn't give a reason how his Moral Law escapes the Euthyphro dilemma
This is not relevant to his argument.
Argument 4. His Moral Law describes what human beings ought to do, which invokes the is/ought problem.
So what?

Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:19 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:08 pm
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:50 am
That's well admitted but the argument you copied is not solid and it can now be shown that you do not really agree with it.
Of course I agree with it, but we have moved on from there.
If you agree with it then it thoroughly condems you. You pretended to be concerned with honesty so as to have a stick to beat Lewis with while being, by the very standard you were defending, thoroughly dishonest. I am not surprised you want to move on.
Here is my summary of the the main reasons that I reject his main arguments.
Argument 1. He pre-supposes God
No he doesn't.
Argument 2. He never gives a definition of a god
Nothing in his argument needs one.
Argument 3. He doesn't give a reason how his Moral Law escapes the Euthyphro dilemma
This is not relevant to his argument.
Argument 4. His Moral Law describes what human beings ought to do, which invokes the is/ought problem.
So what?
And that is a solid summary of where we are.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 11, 2019 8:43 pm

I think that where Moonwood has most profoundly summed up is this, SEG:

It really honestly does feel as if you are merely in this to win an argument at any cost.

Any time an argument is presented, you will raise the same litany of arguments:

1. "It presupposes God." You've raised this one even when we've stated the existence of God as an Ad Argumentum.
2. "How do you know it's your god?" You raise this one when an argument purports to prove the existence of God, even though that wasn't the question.
3. "What about ..." [Euthyphyro, Is/Ought, Epicurus, Mythical Jesus, This Week's Atheist Mantra] -- you raise one of these to escape answering an argument on point.
4. "There's no evidence for..." [existence of Nazareth, pre-columbian art, the square root of pi] -- you use this as a shield to protect you from ever having to personally consider an argument.

If caught out on a minor point, you'll go through the litany of justification:
1. I did not!
2. You don't understand, it was appropriate to do it.
3. So what? You do it too! ("Et tu quoque").

And even now, having just admitted to dishonesty and saying that you won't do it again, you cite Judges 14 above as proof that it's okay to be selfish. If you had read the story of Samson from beginning to end you would know several things about Samson, the first being that very little of what Samson ever did was "Okay" by anyone's standards. You would ALSO know that all marriages of that day were arranged marriages, and you would know why his parents were such pushovers when it came to letting him marry a Philistine girl.

The fact that you THINK that Judges 14 shows that it's OK to be selfish means that someone told you that it did, which means that it's another Cut-N-Paste argument; the same sort that Moonwood just got done bringing you up short on a moment ago.

So that pretty much tells me that your sole purpose here -- as Moonwood correctly called it -- is to win arguments. If that's your goal, like that Lich fellow who was in here not long ago, I for my part am more than willing to roll my eyes and pat you on the head. Okay, SEG, if that's the best you can do, sure, you "Won" the argument. Now you can brag to all your friends about "Winning" an argument.

Of course, that boast will taste like ashes in your mouth, because you really didn't win anything, did you?
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 11, 2019 9:31 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:44 pm
SEG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm
Chapabel wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:04 pm
Of course I have. Several times. Wonderful book to read. I highly recommend it
I highly recommend that you read this, it may change your mind about it being reliable:
Genesis: Contradiction List
When was heaven created?
The two contradictory creation accounts. 1:1-2:3, 2:4-25
Who created heaven and earth? 1:1
How long did creation take? 1:3-2:3, 2:4
When did God divide light from darkness? 1:4-5, 1:16-19
Were plants created before or after humans? 1:11, 2:4-7
When were the stars made? 1:16-19
From what were the fowls created? 1:20-21, 2:19
From what were the animals created? 1:20, 2:19
Were humans created before or after the other animals? 1:25-26, 2:7, 2:18-22
How many gods are there? 1:26, 3:22, 11:7
When was Eve created? 1:27, 2:20-22
Did God originally create humans male and female? 1:27, 2:18-22
Is childbearing sinful? 1:28
May Adam eat from any tree? 1:29, 2:17
Does God work on the Sabbath? 2:2-3
Is marriage a good thing? 2:18
Is wisdom a good thing? 3:6
Doe God have a body? 3:8
Does God know and see everything? 3:8, 4:14, 4:16, 11:5, 18:9, 18:17, 18:20-21, 22:12, 32:27
Is everyone descended from Adam and Eve? 3:20
Does God respect anyone? 4:4
Does God desire animal sacrifices? 4:4, 8:20-21, 15:9-10
What became of Cain? 4:12
Was Enoch the sixth or seventh from Adam? 5:3-18
Does everyone die? 5:24
Did Enoch die? 5:24
Has anyone ever ascended into heaven? 5:24
Who was Noah's youngest son? 5:32, 6:10, 7:13, 9:18, 9:22-24, 10:1
How many sons did God have? 6:2
What is the human life span? 6:3, 9:29, 11:10-32, 25:7, 25:17
Does God repent? 6:6-7
Has there ever been a just person? 6:9
Has there ever been a righteous person? 7:1
To kill or not to kill 7:4
When did Noah enter the ark? 7:7-10, 7:11-13
How many animals of each kind did Noah take into the ark? 6:19-20, 7:2-3, 7:8-9, 7:15
How long did the flood last? 7:17, 7:24, 8:3
Did everyone die in the flood? 7:21-23
How long was the ark afloat? 8:4-5
When did the earth dry after the flood? 8:13-14
Will God curse the earth? 8:21
What kind of animals may we eat? 9:3
Is it OK to eat blood? 9:4
Are we punished for the sins of others? 9:20-25, 20:18
How many languages were there before the Tower of Babel was built? 10:5, 20, 31, 11:1
Who was the father of Salah? 10:24, 11:12
Did God call Abraham before or after he moved to Haran? 11:31-12:4
How old was Terah when he died? 11:26, 11:32, 12:4
How old was Abraham when he left Haran? 11:26, 11:32, 12:4
Is God the author of confusion? 11:7
How old was Abram when Ishmael was born? 11:26, 11:32, 16:16
Can God be seen? 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 26:24, 32:30, 35:1, 35:7, 35:9
When was the city of Dan named? 14:14
Who owns the earth? 14:19, 22
How long was the Egyptian Captivity? 15:13
What are the borders of Israel? 15:18
How many sons did Abraham have? 16:15, 22:2, 22:12, 25:2
Is circumcision required? 17:7, 17:10, 17:13, 17:19
Is incest forbidden? 17:16, 20:12
How old was Ishmael when he was abandoned by Abraham? 17:25, 21:14-18
Did Sarah have faith that she would conceive? 18:10-15
Is anything too hard for the Lord? 18:14
Was Lot a righteous man? 19:8, 30-36
Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? 19:13, 19:24
Did Lot's daughters think God had killed every man except Lot? 19:21-22, 30, 31
Is incest forbidden? 19:30-36
How many generations from Abraham to Moses? 21:1-3, 25:21-26, 35:23
Is it OK to take oaths? 21:23-24, 24:2, 9, 31:53, 47:31
Who named Beersheba? 21:31, 26:33
Does God tempt people? 22:2
Does God approve of human sacrifices? 22:2-13
Did Abraham know God's name? 22:14
Was Keturah Abraham's wife or concubine? 25:1
Will there be many Jews? 26:4
Who was Bashemath's father? 26:34, 36:2-3
Who was Laban's father? 28:5, 29:5
When did Jacob rename Luz to Bethel? 28:18-19, 33:18, 35:6-7
Who was Anah? 36:2, 36:14, 36:20, 36:24
Who was Korah's father? 36:14-16
Who brought Joseph into Egypt? 37:28, 37:36, 39:1
Where did Joseph's brothers find the missing money? 42:27-35, 43:21
How old was Benjamin when his clan migrated to Egypt? 44:20, 22
Was Mahli the son of Levi? 46:11
How many descendants of Jacob and Leah went to Egypt with Jacob? 46:15
Will God destroy those that intermarry? 46:20
Who were the sons of Benjamin? 46:21
Were Naaman and Ard the sons or the grandsons of Benjamin? 46:21
How many were in Jacob's family when they came into Egypt? 47:27
What were the twelve tribes of Israel? 49:3-27
Where was Jacob buried? 50:13
Tell you what SEG, you start a new thread and present each one of these supposed contradictions and I will educate you. I will not, however, allow you to simply cut and paste and expect me to answer this mass of ignorance all at once. So what do you say Sport, are you ready to be schooled?
Let's cut to the quick and riddle me this - Does Genesis get any scientific knowledge of our natural environment wrong?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Chapabel » Sat May 11, 2019 9:57 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:31 pm
Let's cut to the quick and riddle me this - Does Genesis get any scientific knowledge of our natural environment wrong?
I doubt it. But why not come right out and present your supposed contradiction? You seem to be trying to set me up for a “Gotcha” type of question.

Right now you need to address the pickle you’re in with Moon and Og. I’ll gladly defer your response to me to them. Good luck with that.

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