C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

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Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 04, 2019 8:45 am

SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:39 am
Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:41 am
You acknowledge the validity of my shipboard example -- the two conflicting impulses, and the third thing that determined the right path -- in that case, discipline, self-restraint, and training. So in spite of that, are you denying that moral decisions involve two moral impulses and a third thing that tells you which to indulge?
What's "telling me" would be my own intuition or sense that comes from within. It is an evolutionary sense like our Fight or Flight response.
Nice red herring. I'm well-enough read-up on the Limbic system and it's responses, which, actually, in order of priority, tend to be Freeze, Flight, or Fight. And in that case, the Limbic Response sounds much more like impulse number 2 than impulse number 3. Number three has to involve either the Frontal Lobe -- reason acting above Freeze/Flight/Fight -- or else something ABOVE the Frontal Lobe.

But I won't bore you with the workings of the human brain, especially since it is a digression from our point...
What is fight or flight response?
This is the body’s response to perceived threat or danger. During this reaction, certain hormones like adrenalin and cortisol are released, speeding the heart rate, slowing digestion, shunting blood flow to major muscle groups, and changing various other autonomic nervous functions, giving the body a burst of energy and strength.
So, what was your source for that? I'm thinking that it wasn't any serious Psychological or Psychiatric literature, was it?
Some Christians through wishful thinking or ignorance would place it in the hands of God.
See, SEG? That's what I mean by "poisoning the well." You're painting any conclusion except the one you favor as "Wishful" and "Ignorant."

I realize that Carrier does the same, and that you think he's clever, but really, SEG, emulating your hero by poisoning the well? You're above that, SEG. You can do better.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am

Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:35 am
I am not the least bogged down. I've finished with the book and am simply taking my time putting my findings into a world-readable format.
Did you finish reading the book entirely, or are you just finished with the book?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 04, 2019 9:15 pm

Oh and did you like my new signature? I borrowed it from Richard as it's what I've always thought and irrefutable.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sat May 04, 2019 9:46 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:41 am
When you show that Lewis's argument depends on him explaining that it wil become worth discussing.
We evolved from monkeys, does it go back that far?
I thought that was something you wanted to make a case for; why are you asking me?
I wanted to know how Lewis justified his moral law being around before humans and how it would be relevant to anything if humans didn't exist. Btw, I have come across something that you may want to read if you haven't already. It's David Holbrook's psychoanalytic study of Lewis entitled "The Skeleton in the Wardrobe" in which he sees signs of Lewis' fear of women and sexuality reflected in the Narnia series.
Last edited by SEG on Sun May 05, 2019 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 04, 2019 9:58 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am
Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:35 am
I am not the least bogged down. I've finished with the book and am simply taking my time putting my findings into a world-readable format.
Did you finish reading the book entirely, or are you just finished with the book?
Appendices begin on p.619, and I didn't read the appendices. But I read pp.1-618. Six hundred pages of a man droning on about his pet theory, and how smart he thinks he is, and how dull he finds everyone else, and especially those fools who believe in Christ. Honestly, I should have made you read the entire Matthew Henry commentary in exchange for reading this drivel. By comparison with Carrier, you must be finding Lewis' humble and self-effacing style, not to mention his absolute transparency, to be utterly fascinating.

So have you gotten to chapter 4., "What Lies Beneath the Law?" -- because I should have thought you'd be going on and on about his comments on Science, which strangely parallel another voice you've heard on that topic... Oh, but I don't want to spoil it for you. Page 32 of my edition is where the fun really begins...
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 04, 2019 10:07 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:46 pm
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:41 am
When you show that Lewis's argument depends on him explaining that it wil become worth discussing.
We evolved from monkeys, does it go back that far?
I thought that was something you wanted to make a case for; why are you asking me?
I wanted to know how Lewis justified his moral law being around before humans and how it would be relevant to anything if humans didn't exist. Btw, I have come across something that you may want to read if you haven't already. It's David Holbrook's psychoanalytic study of Lewis entitled "The Skeleton in the Wardrobe" in which he sees signs of Lewis' fear of women and sexuality reflected in the Narnia series.
I can imagine what sorts of vitriol he might throw. Don't bother quoting him. I'd say that I know Lewis' mind better than he does.

For example, I imagine that his thesis is that Lewis is a nerdy and sexually-repressed Victorian moralist who never had a satisfactory relationship with women, which would be laughable to anyone who has read Surprised by Joy or A Pilgrim's Regress. You do know that he was married, don't you?

Don't go down the rabbit hole of Ad Hominem attacks. They prove nothing about what Lewis said, and quite honestly, anyone with the slightest familiarity with Freud can draw all sorts of conclusions from anything written by anyone. A few citations out of context and I could make anyone you name into any sort of freak you'd like. If that's your game, then perhaps logic is too deep for you. Perhaps page 3 of the Daily Mail might be more your speed.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sat May 04, 2019 10:11 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:15 pm
Oh and did you like my new signature? I borrowed it from Richard as it's what I've always thought and irrefutable.
It's actually a bit puerile, and we've discussed it before. It merely confirms what Moonwood said: However many times you are shown that an argument is absurd, you simply repeat it again as if it were new.

In the "New proposition" thread, I've posted that argument as a pop quiz for students of logic, so that they can name the unstated assumptions and the fallacies involved. You should give it a go, just to see if Salmon actually taught you anything...
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sun May 05, 2019 7:31 am

Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:11 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:15 pm
Oh and did you like my new signature? I borrowed it from Richard as it's what I've always thought and irrefutable.
It's actually a bit puerile, and we've discussed it before. It merely confirms what Moonwood said: However many times you are shown that an argument is absurd, you simply repeat it again as if it were new.

In the "New proposition" thread, I've posted that argument as a pop quiz for students of logic, so that they can name the unstated assumptions and the fallacies involved. You should give it a go, just to see if Salmon actually taught you anything...
I guessed that you wouldn't like it, as it shows up your supposedly "compassionate", "benevolent", "just" and "forgiving" god for what he actually is. Hold on, I've got at least 3 more now!

Premise One: If a benevolent God exists, then he would do things just as a benevolent person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a benevolent person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a benevolent God does not exist.

Premise One: If a just God exists, then he would do things just as a just person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a just person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a just God does not exist.

Premise One: If a forgiving God exists, then he would do things just as a forgiving person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a forgiving person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a forgiving God does not exist.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by SEG » Sun May 05, 2019 7:54 am

Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:07 pm
I can imagine what sorts of vitriol he might throw. Don't bother quoting him. I'd say that I know Lewis' mind better than he does.
So disregard this part as well?
Holbrook speaks quite highly of Lewis' novels The Magician's Nephew (the 2nd to last of the Narnia series, though it's a prequel) and Till We Have Faces.
For example, I imagine that his thesis is that Lewis is a nerdy and sexually-repressed Victorian moralist who never had a satisfactory relationship with women, which would be laughable to anyone who has read Surprised by Joy or A Pilgrim's Regress. You do know that he was married, don't you?
Yes, it looked like he lived in sin with a friend's mother who it was rumoured that was the love of his life. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a closet homosexual (or "homo" as he called them) as in "Those who shout the loudest usually have the most to hide".

His marriage was a marriage of convenience later in life to a fan according to a BBC documentary. They deceptively married so that she wouldn't get deported, but later fell in love. He seemed to have a loss of faith after she died , cursing God for being unjust.
Don't go down the rabbit hole of Ad Hominem attacks. They prove nothing about what Lewis said, and quite honestly, anyone with the slightest familiarity with Freud can draw all sorts of conclusions from anything written by anyone. A few citations out of context and I could make anyone you name into any sort of freak you'd like. If that's your game, then perhaps logic is too deep for you. Perhaps page 3 of the Daily Mail might be more your speed.
Nope, that's a Pommie rag.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

Post by Og3 » Sun May 05, 2019 7:56 am

SEG wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:31 am
Og3 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:11 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:15 pm
Oh and did you like my new signature? I borrowed it from Richard as it's what I've always thought and irrefutable.
It's actually a bit puerile, and we've discussed it before. It merely confirms what Moonwood said: However many times you are shown that an argument is absurd, you simply repeat it again as if it were new.

In the "New proposition" thread, I've posted that argument as a pop quiz for students of logic, so that they can name the unstated assumptions and the fallacies involved. You should give it a go, just to see if Salmon actually taught you anything...
I guessed that you wouldn't like it, as it shows up your supposedly "compassionate", "benevolent", "just" and "forgiving" god for what he actually is. Hold on, I've got at least 3 more now!

Premise One: If a benevolent God exists, then he would do things just as a benevolent person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a benevolent person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a benevolent God does not exist.

Premise One: If a just God exists, then he would do things just as a just person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a just person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a just God does not exist.

Premise One: If a forgiving God exists, then he would do things just as a forgiving person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a forgiving person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a forgiving God does not exist.
Asked and answered in the appropriate thread. The reasoning remains fallacious, whichever term you plug in, for all the same reasons. See the comments in the other thread.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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