God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

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Claire
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by Claire »

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Why would God imprison/release Satan instead of killing him?
In Rev. 20, John is describing a revelation of the future. There's more than one interpretation of this chapter, so if you're genuinely interested, you should first take the time to familiarize yourself with them.

And, if you think God should end Satan's existence entirely because he didn't make ideal choices, then you must think He should do the same to humans. Well, God hasn't done that to him, or you, or me, or anyone, because He respects our free will, but we won't escape justice either.
Why doesn't he respect the free will of angels and let them commit sin?
Lucifer (Satan) was an angel, and as I said, God does respect his free will, just as He does of other angels, which means He doesn't violate it. And, there were many angels who chose to, and chose not to follow Satan.

Additionally, the angel, Azariah, dictated to Maria Valtorta about Lucifer. She re-read the lesson later, meditated, and stopped short at the phrase: "Lucifer [was] not holy to the point of being all love." She expressed:
In the sublime concept that I have of the angels, I do not succeed in grasping how a spirit such as an angel is, would have been able to have anything lacking. My amazement before the sin of the angels has always been invincible! And, no one has ever given me an explanation that persuaded me as to how some of these spiritual beings had been able to sin, [when they were] created by the perfect Will of God in a creation in which the element of 'Evil,' not yet formed, was lacking, and who were contemplating the eternal Perfection, and That alone. And, now the phrase: "not holy [to the point] of being all love", stops me, stirring up anew my: "How can that be."
So, to help her understand, Azariah explained the following, and he goes into what we're talking about:
...I tell you that in the angels -- different in nature and perfection from all of you -- there is in the angels, as in you, free will. God has created no one a slave. In the beginning there was in creation only Order, but that Order does not exclude freedom. Rather in that Order is perfect freedom. To be exact, in such order there is not even the fear of an invasion, an intrusion, of the anarchy of other wills which could produce collusion and ruin that penetrate into the orbit, and trajectory of other beings, or created things. Thus, it was for the whole Universe, before Lucifer abused his own freedom, and with his own will put into himself the disorder of passions, so as to create disorder in that perfect Order. Had he been all love, he would have had no place in himself for anything that was not love. Instead, he had a place for arrogant pride which could be called: the disorder of the intellect.

Would God have been able to hinder this deed? Yes. But, why violate the free will of the most beautiful, most intelligent archangel? Would not He Himself, the Most Just, then have put disorder into His own ordered Thought? By no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is, the freedom of the archangel? God does not oppress a troubled spirit in order violently to place it in the impossibility of sinning. Lucifer's not sinning would then have had no merit. Even for us [angels] it was necessary 'to know how to want the Good', in order to continue to merit enjoying the vision of God, infinite Bliss!

As God had wanted this sublime archangel at His side in His first creative works, and wanted him to know about the future of His creation of love, so God wanted him to know the adorable, and sorrowful necessity that his sin would have imposed on God: the Incarnation and Death of a God to counterbalance the ruin from the Sin that would have been created should Lucifer not have conquered pride in himself. Love could not but speak this language. God's first annihilation is in this act of wanting to bend sweetly, gently, this proud [archangel]; and with the vision of what his pride would have imposed on God, almost imploring him not to sin, and thus bring others to sin. It was an act of love.

Lucifer, already become a Satan, took this act as fear, weakness and an insult, as a declaration of war. And he stirred up war against the Most Perfect, saying:

"You are? I also am. Whatever You made, it was for me You made it. There is no God. And, if there is a God, I am [he]. I adore myself. I detest You. I refuse to recognize as my Lord One Who does not know how to conquer me. You should not have created me so perfect if You wanted no rivals. Now I am and I am against You. Conquer me, if You can. But, I do not fear You. I, too, will create; and because of me Your Creation will tremble, for I will shake it like a shred of cloud caught by the winds. For I hate You and I want to destroy whatever is Yours, to create upon its ruins that which will be mine. I neither know nor recognize any other power outside of myself. And, I no longer adore, no longer adore, NO LONGER ADORE any other than myself."

Truly then in Creation, in all Creation, from the lowest [form] to the very depths, there was a horrendous convulsion from the horror of these sacrilegious words. A convulsion such as will not [again] be until the end of Creation. And, from it was born Hell: the kingdom of Hate.
My soul, do you understand how Evil was born? From a free will, and, being respected as such by God, from one who was not 'all love.' And, believe it: upon every fault which is committed from then on is this judgment: 'Here there is not all love.' Complete love forbids one to sin; and without any effort. He who loves does not toil to reach justice! Love carries him above all the mire and dangers, and from moment to moment purifies him from barely apparent imperfections that are still there in the last step of consummate holiness: in that state in which the spirit is so [far] developed as to be truly a king, already united by spiritual marriage to its Lord, enjoying but one step less than that which is the life of the blessed in Heaven: so much does God give Himself and reveal Himself to His blessed child.

Glory to the Father, to the Son, to the Holy Spirit.
Source: The Book of Azariah
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you think that God loves and respects Satan and regards him the same way as humans?
Those who choose to possess love can grasp and accept Love that's God. Satan, like many humans, choose not to, so they can't. And, what God respects about Satan and humans is our free will, so He won't violate it.
Ok, so God respects Satan. Does he love him too?
I said God respects Satan's free will by not violating it. How are you using the word "respect"? And, as I said, Satan, like many humans, doesn't allow himself to grasp or accept Love that's God.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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SEG
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

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If he was a God that was all powerful and all good, he would not care about having any respect at all for pure evil. He would do his job and destroy him after making the huge mistake of creating him in the first place. He wouldn't need to accept or grasp God's love if it was genuine. Just like anyone else. So we are left with a weak god that respects and loves evil.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Claire
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by Claire »

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you think that God loves and respects Satan and regards him the same way as humans?
Those who choose to possess love can grasp and accept Love that's God. Satan, like many humans, choose not to, so they can't. And, what God respects about Satan and humans is our free will, so He won't violate it.
Ok, so God respects Satan. Does he love him too?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:I said God respects Satan's free will by not violating it. How are you using the word "respect"? And, as I said, Satan, like many humans, doesn't allow himself to grasp or accept Love that's God.
If he was a God that was all powerful and all good, he would not care about having any respect at all for pure evil. He would do his job and destroy him after making the huge mistake of creating him in the first place. He wouldn't need to accept or grasp God's love if it was genuine. Just like anyone else. So we are left with a weak god that respects and loves evil.
I said God respects Satan's free will, just as He does that of humans and angels, by not violating it. And, that Satan, like many humans, doesn't allow himself to grasp or accept Love that's God.

As God wanted this sublime archangel at His side in His first creative works, and wanted him to know the future of His creation of love, so God wanted him to know the necessity that would be imposed on Him, should he not conquer pride in himself: the Incarnation and Death of God.

So, when a vapour of pride arose in Lucifer, God gave him a vision of what his pride would impose on Him should he not conquer it, almost imploring him not to sin, and thus bring others to sin. It was an act of love. Satan took this act as fear, weakness, and an insult, as a declaration of war. And, despite being shown the future of those who love, and the consequences of his sinning, rather than scatter his pride, Satan chose to condense it by brooding over it, and evil was born of this incubation.

Would God have been able to hinder Lucifer's deed of abusing his freedom? Yes, but then God would've put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: free will.

Source: The Poem of the Man-God/The Book of Azariah
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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SEG
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

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Claire wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:31 am
I said God respects Satan's free will,
He shouldn't respect anything about Him!
just as He does that of humans and angels, by not violating it
.
Why not violate just His free will and leave everyone else's alone? He makes the rules doesn't he?
And, that Satan, like many humans, doesn't allow himself to grasp or accept Love that's God.
How would you know that?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Claire
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by Claire »

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:I said God respects Satan's free will, just as He does that of humans and angels, by not violating it.
He shouldn't respect anything about Him! Why not violate just His free will and leave everyone else's alone? He makes the rules doesn't he?
As I said, God could violate His creation's free will, but to do so would put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: free will.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:And, that Satan, like many humans, doesn't allow himself to grasp or accept Love that's God.
How would you know that?
God's Grace.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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SEG
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by SEG »

Well you can't interrupt God's thoughts and suggest something logical, can you? If he can't destroy evil because his thinking would get muddled about a stupid concept that he made up, what good is he? Maybe he should have a triple dose of God's grace?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Claire
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by Claire »

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:I said God respects Satan's free will, just as He does that of humans and angels, by not violating it.
He shouldn't respect anything about Him! Why not violate just His free will and leave everyone else's alone? He makes the rules doesn't he?
As I said, God could violate His creation's free will, but to do so would put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: free will.
SEG wrote:Well you can't interrupt God's thoughts and suggest something logical, can you? If he can't destroy evil because his thinking would get muddled about a stupid concept that he made up, what good is he? Maybe he should have a triple dose of God's grace?
As I said, it's not that God can't violate His creation's free will, or destroy Satan. He doesn't by choice. In relation to what we're discussing, the angel, Azariah, explained:
God has created no one a slave. In the beginning there was in creation only Order. But that Order does not exclude freedom. Rather in that Order is perfect freedom. To be exact, in such order there is not even the fear of an invasion, an intrusion, of the anarchy of other wills which could produce collusion and ruin that penetrate into the orbit and trajectory of other beings or created things.
What this means is in God's Order there's perfect freedom, because when we follow it, and we don't give into sin, or act against His will, we have true freedom in our actions, because we're not under the influence of fear, hatred, envy, pride, etc. So, we're not restricted from sin. Instead, we have the freedom to not be moved by our sin, or the sinful actions of others that interfere with our own path, and expression of will.

He continued:
Thus it was for the whole Universe, before Lucifer abused his own freedom and with his own will put into himself the disorder of passions, so as to create disorder in that perfect Order. Had he been all love, he would have had no place in himself for anything that was not love. Instead he had a place for arrogant pride which could be called: the disorder of the intellect.
This now disorder in the Order, brought about by Satan, means we are under the influence of sins we weren't before, though we still maintain a free will. So, now we can either use our free will to know true freedom, or become slaves to sin.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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SEG
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by SEG »

Claire wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:02 am
As I said, it's not that God can't violate His creation's free will, or destroy Satan. He doesn't by choice.

So he can, but chooses not to end evil and suffering. Why would you worship such a god?
Claire wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:02 am
In relation to what we're discussing, the angel, Azariah, explained:
God has created no one a slave.
Except angels, as they haven't the free will to sin or do evil. Correct?
In the beginning there was in creation only Order.

How would anyone know that?
What this means is in God's Order there's perfect freedom, because when we follow it, and we don't give into sin, or act against His will, we have true freedom in our actions, because we're not under the influence of fear, hatred, envy, pride, etc. So, we're not restricted from sin.
Except for angels, correct?
This now disorder in the Order, brought about by Satan,

This means that a god with balls and infinitely powerful could destroy Satan. Your god can't because he can't mess with his freedom of choice. A god with balls wouldn't be constricted by political correctness. He would get the job done to save humanity from evil and tragedy.
means we are under the influence of sins we weren't before, though we still maintain a free will.
A good god and powerful god could maintain our free will and destroy Satan without stressing about interfering with HIS free will.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Claire
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by Claire »

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:I said God respects Satan's free will, just as He does that of humans and angels, by not violating it.
He shouldn't respect anything about Him! Why not violate just His free will and leave everyone else's alone? He makes the rules doesn't he?
As I said, God could violate His creation's free will, but to do so would put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: free will.
SEG wrote:Well you can't interrupt God's thoughts and suggest something logical, can you? If he can't destroy evil because his thinking would get muddled about a stupid concept that he made up, what good is he? Maybe he should have a triple dose of God's grace?
Claire wrote:As I said, it's not that God can't violate His creation's free will, or destroy Satan. He doesn't by choice. In relation to what we're discussing, the angel, Azariah, explained:
God has created no one a slave. In the beginning there was in creation only Order. But that Order does not exclude freedom. Rather in that Order is perfect freedom. To be exact, in such order there is not even the fear of an invasion, an intrusion, of the anarchy of other wills which could produce collusion and ruin that penetrate into the orbit and trajectory of other beings or created things.
What this means is in God's Order there's perfect freedom, because when we follow it, and we don't give into sin, or act against His will, we have true freedom in our actions, because we're not under the influence of fear, hatred, envy, pride, etc. So, we're not restricted from sin. Instead, we have the freedom to not be moved by our sin, or the sinful actions of others that interfere with our own path, and expression of will.

He continued:
Thus it was for the whole Universe, before Lucifer abused his own freedom and with his own will put into himself the disorder of passions, so as to create disorder in that perfect Order. Had he been all love, he would have had no place in himself for anything that was not love. Instead he had a place for arrogant pride which could be called: the disorder of the intellect.
This disorder in the perfect Order caused by Satan means we're now under the influence of sins, though we still maintain a free will. So, we can either use our free will to know true freedom, or become slaves to sin.
He continued:
Would God have been able to hinder this deed? Yes. But why violate the free will of the most beautiful, most intelligent archangel? Would not He Himself, the Most Just, then have put disorder into His own ordered Thought? by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is, the freedom of the archangel? God does not oppress a troubled spirit in order violently to place it in the impossibility of sinning. Lucifer's not sinning would then have had no merit. Even for us [angels] it was necessary 'to know how to want the Good' in order to continue to merit enjoying the vision of God, infinite Bliss!
To summarize, Evil was born from a free will of one that was not all love: Lucifer. How is it that Lucifer became the Spirit of Evil, who was [formerly] a kind and holy spirit (though not holy to the point of being all love)? To help you understand the answer, you must first read the following, and I quote the angel, Azariah:
Jesus is the Epitome of the love of the Three. Jesus is the Epitome of that which is the Most Holy Trinity and Unity of God. The Perfection of the Three is epitomized in only One. The infinite, multiform Perfection is epitomized in Jesus. An abyss of Perfection before which the Heavenly armies and blessed multitudes of Paradise prostrate themselves. An abyss of Love which could be and can be grasped and accepted only by those who possess love.

It's the measure of love which one has in oneself that gives the measure of one's perfection and resistance to any corruption. When love is complete, nothing more can enter to corrupt one. That particle [of oneself] that does not love is an easy breach through which to be infiltrated with the first elements that are not love. And they force, widen, flood and submerge the good elements, until they kill them.
Lucifer had an incomplete measure of love, for his self-complacency occupied a space in him, a space in which there could be no love. And, it was the breach through which entered -- ruinously -- his depravity. Because of it, he could not grasp and accept the Christ-Love, the Epitome of the infinite, unique, Triune Love. And, the fact that today the heresy is more widespread which denies the Divine Humanity of the Second Person and makes of Him [but] a simple good and wise man, is easily explained with this key: the lack of love in the human heart, the incapacity to love, the poverty of the possession of love.

Now, just as God wanted this sublime archangel at his side during His first creative works, and wanted him to know about the future of His creation of love, so He wanted him to know the adorable and sorrowful necessity that his sin would've imposed on God: the Incarnation and Death of a God to counterbalance the ruin from the Sin that would have been created should Lucifer not have conquered pride in himself. Love could not but speak this language.

So, when a vapour of pride, an element not of love, arose in Lucifer, God's first annihilation is in this act of wanting to bend sweetly, gently, this proud [archangel]; and with the vision of what his pride would have imposed on God, almost imploring him not to sin, and thus bring others to sin. It was an act of love. The angel, Azariah, explains Lucifer's reaction to this:
Lucifer, already become a Satan, took this act as fear, weakness and an insult, as a declaration of war. And he stirred up war against the Most Perfect, saying:

"You are? I also am. Whatever You made, it was for me You made it. There is no God. And, if there is a God, I am [he]. I adore myself. I detest You. I refuse to recognize as my Lord One Who does not know how to conquer me. You should not have created me so perfect if You wanted no rivals. Now I am and I am against You. Conquer me, if You can. But, I do not fear You. I, too, will create; and because of me Your Creation will tremble, for I will shake it like a shred of cloud caught by the winds. For I hate You and I want to destroy whatever is Yours, to create upon its ruins that which will be mine. I neither know nor recognize any other power outside of myself. And, I no longer adore, no longer adore, NO LONGER ADORE any other than myself."

Truly then in Creation, in all Creation, from the lowest [form] to the very depths, there was a horrendous convulsion from the horror of these sacrilegious words. A convulsion such as will not [again] be until the end of Creation. And from it was born Hell: the kingdom of Hate.
So, despite being shown by God what would happen should he sin, he chose to not scatter his pride, rather condensed it by brooding over it, and thus evil was born of this incubation.

God didn't create angels and humans as slaves, doesn't violate His creation's free will, warned Lucifer of what would happen should he sin, forbade Adam and Eve from knowing evil, and warned them of the consequences should they do so. Yet, Satan chose to abuse his freedom, and by his own will create disorder in the perfect Order, and Eve and Adam had a will to know evil, chose to believe Satan's lie, disobey God, and not repent.

You say God should "get the job done to save humanity from evil and tragedy"? He already has made it possible for humanity to be saved from evil and death through His Incarnation and Death, which counterbalanced the ruin from the Sin that was created when Lucifer did not conquer the pride in himself, and without violating our free will.

The enemy here is who pretends to be your ally: Satan.

Sources: The Poem of the Man-God/The Book of Azariah
Last edited by Claire on Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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SEG
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Re: God Releases Satan Instead of Killing Him

Post by SEG »

God has created no one a slave.
Except angels, as they haven't the free will to sin or do evil. Correct?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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