God's Wife Asherah

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searchengineguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

Chapabel wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:33 am
So my comparison of him with the Black Knight from Monty Python’s Search for the Holy Grail was actually very accurate. As long as he thinks he’s winning the argument he will ignore facts and continue on his path. However, isn’t this a sign of some sort of mental illness? Pride will prevent me from conceding I am wrong, but only up to a point. Eventually when the facts are overwhelming I will admit when I am wrong. I’ve never seen SEG do this and admit he was wrong. Is it just stubborn pride or do believe there may be mental illness?
Nice red herring. This is what you skip to when you are flailing to make up a serious argument. Are you denying that your sky daddy used to have a wife?
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

JTH
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by JTH »

searchengineguy wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:11 am
JTH wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:32 am
I’m sorry, searchengineguy, “your” conclusion based on these two articles is...??
And How is Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 related to the latter article?
Hi JTH, welcome to the forum. "My" conclusion isn't just based on a couple of articles, polytheism in the Bible is pretty much well known by most biblical scholars. “Elyon”, translated “the Most High”, was probably the chief god or "father" of 70 gods including “Yahweh”.

Hector Avalos wrote that the oldest Hebrew version of Deuteronomy 32:8 states “sons of El” or “sons of Elohim” and that later editors, to hide the polytheism, translated into the Masoretic Hebrew Text and changed “gods” to “sons of Israel”. The second article is related by another revelation of polytheism in the Bible.

Thanks searchengineguy, pleasure to be here!
Sorry I wasn’t clear enough with my question. I know you didn’t come to whatever the conclusion is with JUST two articles. Nobody should!
What I meant in my question was, “WHAT IS your conclusion of the articles’ topics after reading them?”

Correct me if I’m wrong.. I’m getting the idea that your conclusion of the articles is that - from article one (Titled: Contradictions of the Bible), You believe that Yahweh and El are the same gods and, from article two (Titled: Did God have a wife, scholar says that he did), you believe that Yahweh had a wife named Asherah.

Is that right?!

searchengineguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

JTH wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:04 am
Thanks searchengineguy, pleasure to be here!
Sorry I wasn’t clear enough with my question. I know you didn’t come to whatever the conclusion is with JUST two articles. Nobody should!
What I meant in my question was, “WHAT IS your conclusion of the articles’ topics after reading them?”

Correct me if I’m wrong.. I’m getting the idea that your conclusion of the articles is that - from article one (Titled: Contradictions of the Bible), You believe that Yahweh and El are the same gods and, from article two (Titled: Did God have a wife, scholar says that he did), you believe that Yahweh had a wife named Asherah.

Is that right?!
Only partly. Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 is about henotheism, not monotheism. Elyon was the chief god and Yahweh was given an inheritance by his "dad" as one of the "sons of God". Later devious Christians replaced "sons of God" in the original text with "sons of Israel."
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

JTH
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by JTH »

searchengineguy wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:11 pm
JTH wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:04 am
Thanks searchengineguy, pleasure to be here!
Sorry I wasn’t clear enough with my question. I know you didn’t come to whatever the conclusion is with JUST two articles. Nobody should!
What I meant in my question was, “WHAT IS your conclusion of the articles’ topics after reading them?”

Correct me if I’m wrong.. I’m getting the idea that your conclusion of the articles is that - from article one (Titled: Contradictions of the Bible), You believe that Yahweh and El are the same gods and, from article two (Titled: Did God have a wife, scholar says that he did), you believe that Yahweh had a wife named Asherah.

Is that right?!
Only partly. Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 is about henotheism, not monotheism. Elyon was the chief god and Yahweh was given an inheritance by his "dad" as one of the "sons of God". Later devious Christians replaced "sons of God" in the original text with "sons of Israel."
You’ve said, “Only partly.” I’d like to know which part of my two-statement-assumptions I haven’t got right about what you believe from the articles.

But first,
You might agree with me that every scholar will have their own thesis statements to their own topic of study. And as readers, it is our own discernment because we all know that scholars even if under the same topic of study, don’t always agree with each other. I would encourage the reader’s discernment for you as much as I appreciate your interest to talk here about the questions that you explore!

To this particular topic of ‘el’, I understand why it can be confusing as I was too when I first came across this in the Bible way back when. Few factors that helped me in understanding:

1. Language: As I’m multilingual, my first instinct was to study into the original language. In Hebrew, the term ‘el’ directly translates in English to ‘god’. Since English Bible has very many translations and versions (for example, your reference was NIV), this tends to happen with other words and phrases too.

Hebrew as an ancient language has a different grammatical semantics and syntax comparing to English which is a way newer language with an extremely different language structure.

You know Moses, right? Have you read about him?!
This is a little part from ‘the burning bush’ story.
Exodus‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
“Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God said to Moses, “ I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘ I am has sent me to you.’ ” God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ “This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.”
‭‭
In accordance to English semantics, it is the difference of Common noun vs. Proper Noun
God (El) = Common Noun
I Am = Proper Noun
Equivalent to,
Girl = Common Noun
Jane = Proper Noun

Some relevant words used parallel to El - God are
Elyon - God Most High
Eloah - the God
Elohim hayyim - the Living God
and many more!
There are many different terms that people use in reference to the Holy God of Israel. BUT, that DOESN’T mean that it is His Name. These terms used are majorly based on His characteristics/personality like Him being holy and just and good and living! Etc.

2. Background/Context: Keeping this language element in mind, the next step is to refer to context. For example, if I want to learn more about my identity other than my known knowledge like name and career, one of the first things I’ll have to do is research on my family background, ancestry etc. It’s the same here too!
The context of Deuteronomy 32, verse 8 is that it is a section of Moses’ song of Praise to his God. His audience were the people of Israel i.e, sons of Israel.

Do you know the whole story of Moses? I would tots encourage you to give it a read...it’s quite an interesting life he had! He was a run-away Prince! You probably know the Disney version.

Back to the topic, this song was sung soon after Moses announced Joshua (a brave young man and a devout follower of God) to be his successor as the next leader of Israel and a few days before his own death.
In this particular section, Moses praises his God for His promise of inheritance (promised land - Cannan) to his people, Israel. This God that Moses praises is the same God he encountered in Exodus 3, at the burning bush that I’ve quoted earlier.

You said that,
“...Yahweh was given an inheritance by his "dad" as one of the "sons of God".”
But if you would’ve simply read the few chapters or verses before and after Deuteronomy 32:8 which gives background and context, it is very simple to understand what inheritance, to whom and by whom. Land of Cannan, to Jacob’s descendants, by God of Jacob.
If you choose to read the books of the Bible before and after Deuteronomy, you’d understand more about the inheritance, the number, the boundaries and more terms that are mentioned in these two verses.
Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:8-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
“When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”

This can tell that Yahweh WASN’T given an inheritance by his “DAD”.
Descendants of Jacob inherited from Yahweh.

—— Misunderstanding happens easily when someone removes a verse out of its context and then try to interpret its meaning. ——

You’ve stated, “Later devious Christians replaced "sons of God" in the original text with "sons of Israel."”
You’re right, there are devious people out there but those who translated the Bible weren’t necessarily “devious”. They were just doing their job fulfilling the purpose of translators. The purpose being, to help someone of a different language to understand the message that was written in a language they don’t already know. So whenever there’s misunderstanding, there’s a revision/update in Bible translations which happens more times in English than any other language of this world!

Now do you see why there’s been a revision?!
Misunderstandings happen all the time. It is the translators who take effort to make a better understanding.

3. Culture: Now to your comment, “Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 is about henotheism, not monotheism.”
I hope I have shown clarity that Deuteronomy 32:8-9 talks about the One God of Israel. But why the common confusion, am I right?! It’s because of the culture!
Let me explain.
We ALL are physically and visibly outside the timeline and cultures of Biblical narrative including the scholars who research in these subjects. Hence, it is easy for anyone to overlap and mix up our timeline and culture with Biblical ones or with timelines and cultures within itself which does not help at all. The Bible mentions many instances and events of different nations, cultures, people groups, traditions, rituals and such, that are outside of and different from Israel’s people groups, cultures, traditions etc.

One example specific to our topic ‘el’ is from Isaiah 14:13 NIV‬‬
“You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.”
‭‭
The words of this verse was spoken out about the nation of Babylon by prophet Isaiah who was on the timeline farther after Moses. Moses lived around 14th century BC. Isaiah lived around 8th century BC. By this time, obviously a lot had happened including the “inheritance”. Isaiah was one of the descendants of Jacob, one of the sons of Israel who inherited Cannan, the promised land from the God of Israel.
This verse has a phrase, “the stars of God”. This phrase is in reference to Stars of El in Cannanite mythology. In this mythology, stars of el were astral dieties under the authority of the high god el.
Again reminding you, the term ‘el’ is the common noun ‘god’. Different time period, different culture, different nation, different tradition, different diety. This is why the idea of henotheism enters. Let me highlight - myth and different diety. This is NOT the God of Israel rather a god from a different nation’s myth.

It is understandable that some scholars come to an UNTRUE conclusion because of such references in the Bible if they don’t look into these three basic factors and why you might too!

However, with careful analysis and exponential reading, meditation and learning of the Bible, study and research, it is easy to understand the differences. Henotheism existed only in myths, NEVER as and in the God of Israel, Yahweh, I AM. At different time periods, Israelites did disobey their ONE TRUE GOD and worshipped other gods and idols but that DOESN’T EVER make Yahweh himself any other than monotheistic God of Israel.
^_^

searchengineguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

JTH wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:27 pm
You’ve said, “Only partly.” I’d like to know which part of my two-statement-assumptions I haven’t got right about what you believe from the articles.
This part:
from article one (Titled: Contradictions of the Bible), You believe that Yahweh and El are the same gods
I don't believe Yahweh and El are the same gods. Yahweh was originally believed to be one of many gods that the ancient Israelites worshipped.

From Wiki:
The origins of Judaism, according to the current historical view (as distinct from the history as described in the text of the Bible), lie in the Bronze Age amidst polytheistic ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, co-existing with a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Iron Age I, the Israelite religion became distinct from other Canaanite religions due to the unique monolatristic (proto-monotheistic) worship of Yahweh.
But first,
You might agree with me that every scholar will have their own thesis statements to their own topic of study. And as readers, it is our own discernment because we all know that scholars even if under the same topic of study, don’t always agree with each other. I would encourage the reader’s discernment for you as much as I appreciate your interest to talk here about the questions that you explore!
Sure! but would you agree that all religions evolve and don't stay static?
To this particular topic of ‘el’, I understand why it can be confusing as I was too when I first came across this in the Bible way back when. Few factors that helped me in understanding:

1. Language: As I’m multilingual, my first instinct was to study into the original language. In Hebrew, the term ‘el’ directly translates in English to ‘god’. Since English Bible has very many translations and versions (for example, your reference was NIV), this tends to happen with other words and phrases too.

Hebrew as an ancient language has a different grammatical semantics and syntax comparing to English which is a way newer language with an extremely different language structure.
Agreed
You know Moses, right? Have you read about him?!
Of course! Do you know that most biblical scholars don't believe he existed?

Moses was a henotheist in that he believed that Yahweh was the greatest among all of the other gods.
This is a little part from ‘the burning bush’ story.
Exodus‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
“Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God said to Moses, “ I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘ I am has sent me to you.’ ” God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ “This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.”
‭‭
In accordance to English semantics, it is the difference of Common noun vs. Proper Noun
God (El) = Common Noun
I Am = Proper Noun
Equivalent to,
Girl = Common Noun
Jane = Proper Noun

Some relevant words used parallel to El - God are
Elyon - God Most High
Eloah - the God
Elohim hayyim - the Living God
and many more!
Agreed.
There are many different terms that people use in reference to the Holy God of Israel. BUT, that DOESN’T mean that it is His Name. These terms used are majorly based on His characteristics/personality like Him being holy and just and good and living! Etc.
Now you have just spoken about English grammar, yet you are capitalising Him and His, where there is no need. It has nothing to do with respect and everything to do with correct grammar. You don't need to capitalise personal pronouns!
2. Background/Context: Keeping this language element in mind, the next step is to refer to context. For example, if I want to learn more about my identity other than my known knowledge like name and career, one of the first things I’ll have to do is research on my family background, ancestry etc. It’s the same here too!
The context of Deuteronomy 32, verse 8 is that it is a section of Moses’ song of Praise to his God. His audience were the people of Israel i.e, sons of Israel.
But it was originally sons of God It wasn't until the the ninth century that the Masoretic text replaces "sons of God" with "sons of Israel". Why change the so called word of God?

Just like the NIV did in your example:
Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:8-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬
“When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”
This can tell that Yahweh WASN’T given an inheritance by his “DAD”.
Descendants of Jacob inherited from Yahweh.
That is just what you desperately want to believe. Why not stick to the original text, even if it looks polytheistic?
—— Misunderstanding happens easily when someone removes a verse out of its context and then try to interpret its meaning. ——
Misunderstandings also happen when people try and brainwash you into believing what is not true.
You’ve stated, “Later devious Christians replaced "sons of God" in the original text with "sons of Israel."”
You’re right, there are devious people out there but those who translated the Bible weren’t necessarily “devious”. They were just doing their job fulfilling the purpose of translators. The purpose being, to help someone of a different language to understand the message that was written in a language they don’t already know. So whenever there’s misunderstanding, there’s a revision/update in Bible translations which happens more times in English than any other language of this world!
Now do you see why there’s been a revision?!
Absolutely! The Masoretes changed the text because they wanted to avoid polytheistic implications.
Misunderstandings happen all the time. It is the translators who take effort to make a better understanding.
Or screw the meanings to fit their own theologies.
3. Culture: Now to your comment, “Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 is about henotheism, not monotheism.”
I hope I have shown clarity that Deuteronomy 32:8-9 talks about the One God of Israel. But why the common confusion, am I right?! It’s because of the culture!
Let me explain.
We ALL are physically and visibly outside the timeline and cultures of Biblical narrative including the scholars who research in these subjects. Hence, it is easy for anyone to overlap and mix up our timeline and culture with Biblical ones or with timelines and cultures within itself which does not help at all. The Bible mentions many instances and events of different nations, cultures, people groups, traditions, rituals and such, that are outside of and different from Israel’s people groups, cultures, traditions etc.

One example specific to our topic ‘el’ is from Isaiah 14:13 NIV‬‬
“You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.”
‭‭
The words of this verse was spoken out about the nation of Babylon by prophet Isaiah who was on the timeline farther after Moses. Moses lived around 14th century BC. Isaiah lived around 8th century BC. By this time, obviously a lot had happened including the “inheritance”. Isaiah was one of the descendants of Jacob, one of the sons of Israel who inherited Cannan, the promised land from the God of Israel.
This verse has a phrase, “the stars of God”. This phrase is in reference to Stars of El in Cannanite mythology. In this mythology, stars of el were astral dieties under the authority of the high god el.
Again reminding you, the term ‘el’ is the common noun ‘god’. Different time period, different culture, different nation, different tradition, different diety. This is why the idea of henotheism enters. Let me highlight - myth and different diety. This is NOT the God of Israel rather a god from a different nation’s myth.

It is understandable that some scholars come to an UNTRUE conclusion because of such references in the Bible if they don’t look into these three basic factors and why you might too!

However, with careful analysis and exponential reading, meditation and learning of the Bible, study and research, it is easy to understand the differences. Henotheism existed only in myths, NEVER as and in the God of Israel, Yahweh, I AM. At different time periods, Israelites did disobey their ONE TRUE GOD and worshipped other gods and idols but that DOESN’T EVER make Yahweh himself any other than monotheistic God of Israel.

It looks like you don't believe that Judaism evolved from previous polytheistic religions. Am I right?
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
Posts: 474
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Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

User avatar
Chapabel
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by Chapabel »

JTH...now you can begin to understand why I warned you about SEG. He rejects any truth except what he believes to be truth. His experts are usually bloggers or atheist "Biblical" scholars who reject the authority of the Bible. His responses are neither well thought out nor meaningful. If you look at his responses to you, you will notice his guile. Any discussions with him is a waste of time because he will never admit you may be right or he may be wrong. Good luck.

searchengineguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

Chapabel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:01 pm
JTH...now you can begin to understand why I warned you about SEG. He rejects any truth except what he believes to be truth. His experts are usually bloggers or atheist "Biblical" scholars who reject the authority of the Bible. His responses are neither well thought out nor meaningful. If you look at his responses to you, you will notice his guile. Any discussions with him is a waste of time because he will never admit you may be right or he may be wrong. Good luck.
Chappy the class snitch. You must have been a joy in the 3rd grade. Hold on, do they have the 3rd grade in Hooterville?
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by searchengineguy »

Ain't history grand? Unfortunately for believers, God's marriage before his separation was stamped in the history books. Here is the type of evidence they DON'T want.
Yahweh and his Asherah
As much as the ruling elite tried to inhibit Asherah and Yahweh’s “marriage,” their union appears solidified in an ancient blessing seen with some regularity at a number of excavation sites in the region. The inscription reads: “I have blessed you by Yahweh....and his Asherah.” Not only was this engraving found in the 9th-8th century BC Israelite caravanserai, Kuntillet Ajrud, the same text was found in a number of sites thought to be Yahweh sanctuaries, such as in Samaria, Jerusalem, Teman, and in the Biblical kingdom of Judah, at the ancient burial site of Khirbet el-Qom, dating to 750 BC.

Burial inscription from Khirbet el-Quom, 8th cent. BC., Museum of Israel.

Burial inscription from Khirbet el-Quom, 8th cent. BC., Museum of Israel. Inscription: Uriyahu the prince wrote it: Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and his Asherah, for from his enemies he has saved him." (Nick Thompson/ CC BY NC SA 2.0 )

In fact, this phrase “Yahweh and his Asherah” was so quotidian that it actually appears in the Hebrew Bible itself. The cryptic blessing is in an early rendition of Deuteronomy 33.2-3, when Asherah’s influence had not yet been fully subordinated. The full hymn reads: “YHWH came from Sinai and shone forth.... at his right hand his own Asherah.”
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

User avatar
Moonwood the Hare
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: God's Wife Asherah

Post by Moonwood the Hare »

searchengineguy wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:36 am
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 pm
I find him facinating. His knowledge of Christianity comes almost entirely from arguments against it which he mostly discovers on the internet.
Now you know that's not true Moon. You should know by now that I have read dozens of books on the subject and even some well known Christian books.
Dozens, wow! I am not sure if read is quite the right word for what you have done with Christian books. As I recall your analysis of Mere Christianity consisted of 1. cribing what other people had said and passing that off as your own original thinking 2. picking some odd sentences that you thought you could take a rise out of and focusing on those while ignoring the flow of the argument.
What I HAVE noticed is that your spelling is going down hill. It used to be only an odd typo, but now nearly every post has multiple problems. Is it just sloppiness or are you rushing in with these weird ideas before checking what you post?
problem with the spell check on Avast.
He has a very vague idea of what Christians actually believe and he is very slow to take on board anything that differes from what he reads on these sites which are largely the work of partialy informed incompetents. As soon as you pull him away from his rather small patch of familiar ground he flounders hopelessly. I don't think he is self aware enough to actually be dishonest.
Tch, tch. Which "partialy informed incompetents"?
I have pointed them out to you on numerous occasions. Not surprised you have forgotten though; you don't take in much of what people say to you.

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