Why God's Love is a Joke

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Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:21 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:34 am
SEG wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 2:43 pm
Where is all this promised love in the Christian religion?
Rian wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:36 pm
Often imperfectly displayed by imperfect Christians or even those claiming to be Christians for selfish reasons (power, etc.) but also displayed beautifully throughout the Bible by God, Christians and non-Christians.
It may be that there are nice passages, but they are overshadowed by your god's murderous wrath and intolerance IMO.
That's a different question (and a valid one IMO, btw). As to your original question - I think sometimes you have a confirmation bias; that's why you asked where "all this promised love in the Christian religion" is. When I answered, you seemed to acknowledge that there WERE "nice passages". It seems like you weren't even acknowledging the existence of ANY loving passages before I answered. Or was it just kind of an expression of frustration? I mean, with passages like:
I Cor 13:1-8 wrote: If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things,
Love never fails
and
Ephesians 4:32 wrote: Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
and
Colossians 3:12-14 wrote: So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
and
Philippians 2:3-4 wrote: Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
and how in the NT, one of the highest priorities of the apostles was to take care of the poor (this is Paul writing about meeting up with some of the apostles in Jerusalem)
Galatians 2:10 wrote: They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do.
Anyway, just a few verses off the top of my head; there are many more. And I've seen many, many expressions of love and service by Christians I know who are quietly fulfilling the two greatest commandments (love God and love others - Mark 12:30-31) - note, QUIETLY - that's why you don't see it splashed all over the news.

SEG wrote:Jesus as portrayed in the Bible never had a normal loving relationship with his earthly family. He showed no love for his supposed biological father, mother, sister or brothers. It was the opposite, he showed total disdain.
Rian wrote:I don't see that; where are you getting that from?
SEG wrote:There were no loving or respectful conversations towards his family. His sisters weren't even numbered or named. No normal family interaction was ever mentioned. His father vanished without reason once his literary purpose was finished before his first miracle at the wedding and his siblings weren't there to support his mother at the crucifixion.
Sounds like some of my extended family issues! ;) :D But why would there be a lot about Jesus' family in the Bible? It's not "The Biography of Jesus and His Extended Family". It's about God and who He is and how He loves us. And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
SEG wrote:An actual, loving God would provide instant comfort and guidance to anyone that suffered and experienced pain. How often does this happen? Hardly ever.
Rian wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:33 pm
I think that God does make this available; whether or not someone chooses it is a different question. This is a very complex issue and one that is rightly brought up by those questioning Christianity, IMO. However, there's no sound-bite answer; it's one of the deepest and most solemn things in the universe. I think that there are good explanations, though.
SEG wrote: I would like to hear them when you get a chance Rian. You must be feeling a little bit better these days?
Not very much :( but I just miss you guys and can't resist posting every once in a while, then my posts take up so much time and energy that I just can't keep it up.

As far as God providing comfort - well, I certainly qualify for someone suffering from pain! :D and I experience the comfort and guidance of God, and what's more, looking back over the years, I see many good things that have come about from the pain (although I certainly hate the pain!). I also see many beautiful things that have come about from my son's handicap (I don't know if you recall, but he was born without legs. I'll have to re-post the picture of him riding quads some day! I don't know how he stays on!) although it is a hard and often painful path. I guess that it comes down to this: I would rather be on a painful path WITH God, trusting in and experiencing His goodness and wisdom and love, than a pain-free path WITHOUT God.

I'll try to keep a better eye on this thread in case you respond again - sorry this is so incredibly late!

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SEG
Posts: 2034
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by SEG » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:49 am

Rian wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:36 pm
Often imperfectly displayed by imperfect Christians or even those claiming to be Christians for selfish reasons (power, etc.) but also displayed beautifully throughout the Bible by God, Christians and non-Christians.
SEG wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:34 am
It may be that there are nice passages, but they are overshadowed by your god's murderous wrath and intolerance IMO.
That's a different question (and a valid one IMO, btw). As to your original question - I think sometimes you have a confirmation bias; that's why you asked where "all this promised love in the Christian religion" is. When I answered, you seemed to acknowledge that there WERE "nice passages". It seems like you weren't even acknowledging the existence of ANY loving passages before I answered. Or was it just kind of an expression of frustration?
Yes, but it doesn't seem to be displayed by any of the characters, especially between the family of Jesus and Jesus himself. IOW, It's more like an instruction book of platitudes.
I mean, with passages like:
I Cor 13:1-8
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things,
Love never fails
and

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
and

Colossians 3:12-14
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
and
Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Yes, I agree that they are good advice.
and how in the NT, one of the highest priorities of the apostles was to take care of the poor (this is Paul writing about meeting up with some of the apostles in Jerusalem)
Galatians 2:10 wrote: They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do.
But when did Jesus give anything of his to the poor?
Anyway, just a few verses off the top of my head; there are many more. And I've seen many, many expressions of love and service by Christians I know who are quietly fulfilling the two greatest commandments (love God and love others - Mark 12:30-31) - note, QUIETLY - that's why you don't see it splashed all over the news.
Yes, but how could you command anyone to love you or even to love others? It doesn't make any sense to me.
SEG wrote:Jesus as portrayed in the Bible never had a normal loving relationship with his earthly family. He showed no love for his supposed biological father, mother, sister or brothers. It was the opposite, he showed total disdain.
Sounds like some of my extended family issues! ;) :D But why would there be a lot about Jesus' family in the Bible? It's not "The Biography of Jesus and His Extended Family". It's about God and who He is and how He loves us.

No, I suppose not. It's just that the characters don't seem like real people.
And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
SEG wrote:An actual, loving God would provide instant comfort and guidance to anyone that suffered and experienced pain. How often does this happen? Hardly ever.
Not very much :( but I just miss you guys and can't resist posting every once in a while, then my posts take up so much time and energy that I just can't keep it up.
That's fine Rian, just reply to as much as you like. It's always nice hearing from you.
As far as God providing comfort - well, I certainly qualify for someone suffering from pain! :D and I experience the comfort and guidance of God, and what's more, looking back over the years, I see many good things that have come about from the pain (although I certainly hate the pain!).
If it gives you comfort, just keep it coming!
I also see many beautiful things that have come about from my son's handicap (I don't know if you recall, but he was born without legs. I'll have to re-post the picture of him riding quads some day! I don't know how he stays on!) although it is a hard and often painful path. I guess that it comes down to this: I would rather be on a painful path WITH God, trusting in and experiencing His goodness and wisdom and love, than a pain-free path WITHOUT God.
Have you ever tried letting go of God to see if it feels any different? I can't imagine the struggles you must have with your son. As you know my son is a paraplegic and has his own trials, but it would be a lot worse for you guys.
I'll try to keep a better eye on this thread in case you respond again - sorry this is so incredibly late!
NP Rian! I hope you will drop in when you can. A very Aussie "Ta" to you!
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:13 am

SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And I've seen many, many expressions of love and service by Christians I know who are quietly fulfilling the two greatest commandments (love God and love others - Mark 12:30-31)
Yes, but how could you command anyone to love you or even to love others? It doesn't make any sense to me.
Love includes being charitable, kind, and forgiving. Things most of us try teaching. Have you never given rules or commands for your children to follow, and followed them yourself so as to lead by example?
SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:00 pm

Claire wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:13 am
SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable. But the point remains that Jesus showed his love for his mother by taking steps to care for her as he was dying.
Last edited by Rian on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:02 pm

duplicate post
Last edited by Rian on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Claire
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:32 pm

SEG wrote:
SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
By "kids" do you refer to those in the Bible called the brothers and sisters of Jesus? Those called His brothers, i.e James [not James of Zebedee, Judas [not Judas Iscariot], Joseph, and Simon [not Simon the Zealot or Simon Peter] are the sons of Alphaeus, nephews of Jesus's adoptive Father Joseph, therefore Jesus's "cousins". The sisters are the women disciples of Jesus, i.e Johanna of Chuza, Synteche, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Nike, etc. The terms "brother" and "sister" don't only refer to siblings.

Claire
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:49 pm

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable.
Is all there's to know about the lives of Jesus, His friends, and family mentioned in the Bible? No, not even a great deal. And, the Lord is not a powerless mute. He can speak and give visions of the past to whoever, whenever, and about whatever He pleases.

Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source? In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her. I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so? And, if you consider those mentioned in the Bible reliable, by what standards do you base that on?

Claire
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:24 am

If you find it important enough to wedge yourself in to give your 2¢, but not back it up, say so.

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SEG
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by SEG » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:27 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:32 pm
SEG wrote:
SEG wrote:
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
By "kids" do you refer to those in the Bible called the brothers and sisters of Jesus? Those called His brothers, i.e James [not James of Zebedee, Judas [not Judas Iscariot], Joseph, and Simon [not Simon the Zealot or Simon Peter] are the sons of Alphaeus, nephews of Jesus's adoptive Father Joseph, therefore Jesus's "cousins". The sisters are the women disciples of Jesus, i.e Johanna of Chuza, Synteche, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Nike, etc. The terms "brother" and "sister" don't only refer to siblings.
Well, even if all that is true, did Joseph die before or after Jesus chased out the money changers? What year was that and what year was he executed? I will allow approximate dates because it wasn't really an historical event.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:28 pm

SEG wrote:
SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:By "kids" do you refer to those in the Bible called the brothers and sisters of Jesus? Those called His brothers, i.e James [not James of Zebedee, Judas [not Judas Iscariot], Joseph, and Simon [not Simon the Zealot or Simon Peter] are the sons of Alphaeus, nephews of Jesus's adoptive Father Joseph, therefore Jesus's "cousins". The sisters are the women disciples of Jesus, i.e Johanna of Chuza, Synteche, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Nike, etc. The terms "brother" and "sister" don't only refer to siblings.
Well, even if all that is true, did Joseph die before or after Jesus chased out the money changers? What year was that and what year was he executed? I will allow approximate dates because it wasn't really an historical event.
As I said, Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry, so his death took place before the first cleansing of the Temple. As for the dates of Jesus's birth, death, etc, see here.

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