Why God's Love is a Joke

Create a topic and discuss! No subject is off limits, but moderators have the right to remove asshat posts. What's an asshat post? Selling stuff, trolling, harassing--the usual stuff you don't want to see either. Happy posting!
Post Reply
User avatar
SEG
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by SEG » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:11 pm

How many cleansing of the temple were there and how do you know that? Please don't refer to MV I am not interested in that and will end the discussions if you persist. One book of fiction is enough for me atm.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:20 am

SEG wrote:
SEG wrote:
Rian wrote:And are you not aware of the beautiful passage in John 19 where Jesus, when he was dying, took the time to take care of his mother by handing her care over to the apostle John.
Yes, and I don't get that at all! Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:By "kids" do you refer to those in the Bible called the brothers and sisters of Jesus? Those called His brothers, i.e James [not James of Zebedee, Judas [not Judas Iscariot], Joseph, and Simon [not Simon the Zealot or Simon Peter] are the sons of Alphaeus, nephews of Jesus's adoptive Father Joseph, therefore Jesus's "cousins". The sisters are the women disciples of Jesus, i.e Johanna of Chuza, Synteche, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Nike, etc. The terms "brother" and "sister" don't only refer to siblings.
Well, even if all that is true, did Joseph die before or after Jesus chased out the money changers? What year was that and what year was he executed? I will allow approximate dates because it wasn't really an historical event.
As I said, Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry, so his death took place before the first cleansing of the Temple. As for the dates of Jesus's birth, death, etc, see here.
SEG wrote:How many cleansing of the temple were there and how do you know that? Please don't refer to MV I am not interested in that and will end the discussions if you persist. One book of fiction is enough for me atm.
You wanted dates and I gave them to you. And, here you consider all religious source uncredible, anything of a spiritual nature fictional, yet you want answers from the Bible? How convenient is it that you want answers from a source where not all the answers are found, or at least spelled out. Why would you not want answers or more details from any other source? Now, you don't have to read the sources I cite, but you can't forbid me from citing them in the first place.

Now, the cleansing of the Temple occurred twice. The first took place early on in Jesus's first year of ministry, and in John 2:13-22 we read his account of what occurred. The second was during His third year of ministry, about a week before His crucifixion, which was recorded by Matthew (Matt. 21:12-17), Mark (Mrk. 11:12-20), and Luke (Lk. 19:45-47). Maria Valtorta has a more detailed account of the first and second cleansing.
Last edited by Claire on Fri May 17, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:58 am

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Why hand Mary over to a non-family member? Where was Joseph and the kids?
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable.
Is all there's to know about the lives of Jesus, His friends, and family mentioned in the Bible? No, not even a great deal. And, the Lord is not a powerless mute. He can speak and give visions of the past to whoever, whenever, and about whatever He pleases. Can you forbid Him from doing so?

Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source? In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her. I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so? And, if you consider those mentioned in the Bible reliable, by what standards do you base that on?

If you're not going to answer these questions, because you only find it important enough to wedge yourself in to give your 2¢, but not back it up, say so.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Wed May 01, 2019 4:30 am

Claire wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:58 am
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
Joseph died before Jesus's first year of ministry -- you can read about his death here. And, what kids?
About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable.
Is all there's to know about the lives of Jesus, His friends, and family mentioned in the Bible? No, not even a great deal.
I agree with you there.
And, the Lord is not a powerless mute. He can speak and give visions of the past to whoever, whenever, and about whatever He pleases. Can you forbid Him from doing so?
Nope. I wouldn't even want to.

However, I also have a responsibility to examine anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about God before I accept what they say. I have done so with MV, and have concluded that I do not accept her as a valid authority. You clearly have come to a different conclusion, and that's your prerogative.
Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source?
No, I don't, and I am not aware of ANY source that I accept as valid that tries to speak about it.
In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her.
I agree, but I tried to put it in terms that wouldn't hurt your feelings. And clearly, if they haven't heard of her, they don't accept her as a valid authority.
I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so?
I'm not interested in going over that with you. I've had too much experience with you on this board, and am pretty convinced that it would be a pointless conversation.
And, if you consider those mentioned in the Bible reliable, by what standards do you base that on?
I don't know what you mean by this.
If you're not going to answer these questions, because you only find it important enough to wedge yourself in to give your 2¢, but not back it up, say so.
Rudeness certainly won't buy you an answer from me.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Thu May 02, 2019 5:56 am

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable.
In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her.
I agree, but I tried to put it in terms that wouldn't hurt your feelings. And clearly, if they haven't heard of her, they don't accept her as a valid authority.
The two aren't comparable. And, not hearing of someone clearly means you don't accept them as credible? [giggle] Oh. So, all those brilliant minds throughout history, who've advanced our understanding, are collectively not accepted as credible by those who haven't heard of them...

:popcorn:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source?
No, I don't, and I am not aware of ANY source that I accept as valid that tries to speak about it.
I'm sure they would if they could.
Rian wrote:I also have a responsibility to examine anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about God before I accept what they say. I have done so with MV, and have concluded that I do not accept her as a valid authority.
Back when you hadn't even heard of Maria Valtorta you didn't accept her as credible. And, I have no reason to believe otherwise that you've done little to no research about her or the writings.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so?
I'm not interested in going over that with you. I've had too much experience with you on this board, and am pretty convinced that it would be a pointless conversation.
Defending claims aren't pointless.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:If you're not going to answer these questions, because you only find it important enough to wedge yourself in to give your 2¢, but not back it up, say so.
Rudeness certainly won't buy you an answer from me.
$50 bucks for an answer job. $20 for a quick retort.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Thu May 02, 2019 8:31 am

Claire wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:56 am
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her.
I agree, but I tried to put it in terms that wouldn't hurt your feelings. And clearly, if they haven't heard of her, they don't accept her as a valid authority.
The two aren't comparable. And, not hearing of someone clearly means you don't accept them as credible? [giggle] Oh. So, all those brilliant minds throughout history, who've advanced our understanding, are collectively not accepted as credible by those who haven't heard of them...
Are you serious?!?! How can a person pass judgement on the credibility of someone if they've never heard of them? It's impossible. A person's credibility doesn't depend upon any given person's knowing their credentials, but it's absolutely nuts to make a judgement on the credibility of someone you've never even heard about. They're two different things.

Which is why, when I heard you bring up MV for the first time, I looked into her before passing judgement on her. There is no way I could have made a judgement on her credibility without researching it. I have no idea why you are having a giggle about it. Seriously, it's scary to think you don't see the difference.

Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source?
No, I don't, and I am not aware of ANY source that I accept as valid that tries to speak about it.
I'm sure they would if they could.
This doesn't even make sense, so no comment.
Rian wrote:I have a responsibility to examine anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about God before I accept what they say. I have done so with MV, and have concluded that I do not accept her as a valid authority.
Claire wrote:
Oh, but, you accepted Maria Valtorta as uncredible back when you hadn't even heard of her.
When I hadn't heard of her, it would have been impossible for me to make a judgement on her credibility. Before I heard of her, if someone had asked me what I thought of her credibility, I would have said, "I have no idea; I've never heard of her."

So what you say is absolutely untrue. It doesn't even make any sense.
Claire wrote:Once you did, I have no reason to believe otherwise that you did little to no research.
I can't help what you believe. The weirder her stuff got and the weirder you got about her, the more research I did, until I had more than enough information to be comfortable making a conclusion that she wasn't a credible source for the things she said. For a fictional story based on the Biblical Jesus, she might have some value.
Claire wrote:I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so?
You think I'd answer you after you can't even understand how a person's credibility isn't related to if certain people have heard of them or not?!? Especially after I see no difference in your unsavory and disingenuous posting patterns.
Rian wrote:I'm not interested in going over that with you. I've had too much experience with you on this board, and am pretty convinced that it would be a pointless conversation.
Claire wrote:
Defending claims aren't pointless.
Missed the point again.

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Fri May 03, 2019 5:21 am

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:About Joseph's death - Claire is using a source that many (probably most) Christians don't think is reliable.
In regards to mine, Maria Valtorta, I think it'd be more accurate to say many Christians, if not most, haven't heard of her.
I agree, but I tried to put it in terms that wouldn't hurt your feelings. And clearly, if they haven't heard of her, they don't accept her as a valid authority.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:The two aren't comparable. And, not hearing of someone clearly means you don't accept them as credible? [giggle] Oh. So, all those brilliant minds throughout history, who've advanced our understanding, are collectively not accepted as credible by those who haven't heard of them...

:popcorn:
Are you serious?!?! How can a person pass judgement on the credibility of someone if they've never heard of them? It's impossible. A person's credibility doesn't depend upon any given person's knowing their credentials, but it's absolutely nuts to make a judgement on the credibility of someone you've never even heard about. They're two different things.

Which is why, when I heard you bring up MV for the first time, I looked into her before passing judgement on her. There is no way I could have made a judgement on her credibility without researching it. I have no idea why you are having a giggle about it. Seriously, it's scary to think you don't see the difference.
Not serious. Teasing.

You attempted to mask an active circumstance with a passive one, which was delivered in such a way that a facetious reply was fitting. And, I didn't bring credentials into this. I was making a point that many people who advance our society are virtually unknown by vast swathes of people they've affected. So, arguing most Christians haven't heard of Maria V. has zero to do with whether what she says, or writes, is valid or not.

Lighten up.

On a serious note, there's a substantial difference between actively thinking x is uncredible, and being unaware, thus unable to accept as valid.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:I also have a responsibility to examine anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about God before I accept what they say. I have done so with MV, and have concluded that I do not accept her as a valid authority.
Back when you hadn't even heard of Maria Valtorta you didn't accept her as credible.
When I hadn't heard of her, it would have been impossible for me to make a judgement on her credibility. Before I heard of her, if someone had asked me what I thought of her credibility, I would have said, "I have no idea; I've never heard of her." So what you say is absolutely untrue. It doesn't even make any sense.
See previous.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:And, I have no reason to believe otherwise that you've done little to no research about her or the writings.
I can't help what you believe. The weirder her stuff got and the weirder you got about her, the more research I did, until I had more than enough information to be comfortable making a conclusion that she wasn't a credible source for the things she said. For a fictional story based on the Biblical Jesus, she might have some value.
That's noise to my ears.

Until you cite examples of the "weird stuff" and her being "significantly off in quite a few ways'', your claims of having read "quite a lot" about her, and her writings, are unsubstantiated.
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:I know you're a Christian who considers her unreliable, because you think she's, to put it in your words, "significantly off in quite a few ways". How so?
I'm not interested in going over that with you. I've had too much experience with you on this board, and am pretty convinced that it would be a pointless conversation.
Defending claims aren't pointless.
Rian wrote:Missed the point again.
I caught your point then made a valid one.
Rian wrote:I also have a responsibility to examine anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about God before I accept what they say.
If you've accepted the writers named in the Bible as credible, how did you reach that conclusion?
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:Do you have an explanation for Joseph's whereabouts at any point after Jesus began His ministry? If you do, who's your source?
No, I don't, and I am not aware of ANY source that I accept as valid that tries to speak about it.
I'm sure they would if they could.
Rian wrote:This doesn't even make sense, so no comment.
I was saying I'm sure the sources you accept as valid would speak about Joseph's whereabouts if they could.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Sat May 04, 2019 12:17 am

Do you think MV is a valid source? (or whatever word you want to use) If so, why?

Claire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Sat May 04, 2019 2:30 am

Rian wrote:Do you think MV is a valid source? (or whatever word you want to use). If so, why?
You know I do. And, I'll start putting together my response.

In the meantime, will you explain why you accept the writers, and their accounts recorded in the Bible, as credible?

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Sat May 04, 2019 5:40 am

Claire wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 2:30 am
Rian wrote:Do you think MV is a valid source? (or whatever word you want to use). If so, why?
You know I do. And, I'll start putting together my response.

In the meantime, will you explain why you accept the writers, and their accounts recorded in the Bible, as credible?
Maybe some day. Not now, though - I have other threads I'm more interested in that I would rather spend my time in.

Post Reply