What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

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SEG
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:04 am

SEG wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:31 am
I've got a new question for you Moon. Do you think that Josephus or the Church Father Origen knew of Nazareth?
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:36 pm
I am just not qualified to answer that. Origen is not a Church Father by the way. He was a very distinguished writer but not one of the Fathers.
He is listed here; Church Fathers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, Christian Fathers, or Fathers of the Church are ancient and generally influential Christian theologians, some of whom were eminent teachers and great bishops. The term is used of writers or teachers of the Church not necessarily ordained[1] and not necessarily "saints"—Origen Adamantius and Tertullian are often considered Church Fathers, but are not saints, owing to their views later being deemed heretical.[2] Most Church Fathers are honored as saints in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Church of the East, Anglicanism and Lutheranism, as well as other churches and groups. The era of these scholars who set the theological and scholarly foundations of Christianity largely ended by 700 AD.
Perhaps an heretical church father?

Both Origen and Josephus lived inside of a day's walk from Nazareth if it existed. Josephus lived about a mile from it and could have seen it from where he lived, but both never mentioned it. Don't you think that is strange?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:55 am

Also why weren't Jesus's brothers and sisters disciples or apostles?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:22 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:04 am


Perhaps an heretical church father?

Both Origen and Josephus lived inside of a day's walk from Nazareth if it existed. Josephus lived about a mile from it and could have seen it from where he lived, but both never mentioned it. Don't you think that is strange?
Well I would say you can't be both a Church Father and a heretic but there is nowhere to go further with that. I'm just not the person who can have this argument. You need to discuss it with someone who is thoroughly familiar with Origen and Josephus and other of their contemporaries. Even if I thought it strange it would not mean it was strange and even if it was strange it would not mean it was completely inexplicable and even if it was inexplicable it would be one of many inexplicable things. There really is nowhere I can go with this.

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Chapabel
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:22 pm

SEG wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:55 am
Also why weren't Jesus's brothers and sisters disciples or apostles?
James and Jude were after His resurrection. Each wrote an epistle that bear their names in the NT.

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SEG
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:31 am

Chapabel wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:22 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:55 am
Also why weren't Jesus's brothers and sisters disciples or apostles?
James and Jude were after His resurrection. Each wrote an epistle that bear their names in the NT.
Both of which were forged according to mainstream scholars. None of his brothers or sisters were mentioned at the crucifixion and were not there to comfort Mary at the event or take care of her afterwards. So much for family love. Where was Joseph? He didn't even show at the wedding at the fictitious town of Cana, where Jesus did his first so-called miracle.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

One16unashamed
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by One16unashamed » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:37 am

SEG wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:42 am
Chapabel wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:29 pm
The earliest Christians believed the OT scriptures. The OT scriptures point to Jesus Christ. Read Isaiah 53 for example and you will get a clear picture of Jesus 700 years before His birth.
G'day Chappy! It's good to see some more old members trickling in. Isaiah 53 is NOT a clear picture, it is just another fake prophesy that is vague as hell. Imagine a book being written a thousand years ago containing the words, "the greatest nation in the world will have many enemies" Would that convince you that it was talking about the USA today?
I agree with Chap here, obviously....But to help furthur illustrate the "fake prophecy" that you are claiming SEG. I would like to know your thoughts on Psalm 22, do you not see Jesus in it either?

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2
O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3
But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4
Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5
They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
6
But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7
All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8
“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
9
But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11
Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12
Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13
They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
14
I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
16
For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
19
But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20
Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
21
Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
22
I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23
You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
25
My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
26
The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27
All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
28
For the kingdom is the Lord’s,
And He rules over the nations.
29
All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
30
A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
31
They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.

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SEG
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:53 am

One16unashamed wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:37 am

I agree with Chap here, obviously....But to help furthur illustrate the "fake prophecy" that you are claiming SEG. I would like to know your thoughts on Psalm 22, do you not see Jesus in it either?
So? Are you saying that there is a prophesy in that? Why are they all so vague? When you dig a little deeper, you don't find any prophesy that is specific and works.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:56 pm

SEG wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:31 am
Chapabel wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:22 pm
SEG wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:55 am
Also why weren't Jesus's brothers and sisters disciples or apostles?
James and Jude were after His resurrection. Each wrote an epistle that bear their names in the NT.
Both of which were forged according to mainstream scholars. None of his brothers or sisters were mentioned at the crucifixion and were not there to comfort Mary at the event or take care of her afterwards. So much for family love. Where was Joseph? He didn't even show at the wedding at the fictitious town of Cana, where Jesus did his first so-called miracle.
Modern Scholars? Who, the same scholars that deny the divinity of Jesus? The same scholars that deny the inspiration of the Bible? Just throwing out the term "mainstream scholars" doesn't mean anything. I'm sure modern atheistic scholars would claim the writings were forgeries, but those scholars fall into the category my of "educated idiot". The epistle of James is confirmed by the early church fathers such as Origen of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyons and Clement of Alexandria. Modern scholars, my butt.

You are right that none of Jesus' brothers or sisters are present at the crucifixion. In fact, His brothers did not believe Jesus' claim of divinity (John 7:1-5). That is why on the day of His crucifixion, Jesus asked the disciple John to take care of His mother. However, after the resurrection they realized how wrong they had been and they are found with Jesus' disciples in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). Joseph is not mentioned after Jesus was 12 years old, so it is supposed he died prior to Jesus beginning His earthly ministry.

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SEG
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:41 am

Chapabel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Modern Scholars? Who, the same scholars that deny the divinity of Jesus? The same scholars that deny the inspiration of the Bible? Just throwing out the term "mainstream scholars" doesn't mean anything. I'm sure modern atheistic scholars would claim the writings were forgeries, but those scholars fall into the category my of "educated idiot". The epistle of James is confirmed by the early church fathers such as Origen of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyons and Clement of Alexandria. Modern scholars, my butt.
Origen was NOT a Church Father, according to Moon. Just because they confirmed it, doesn't mean that it wasn't forged.
Chapabel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:56 pm
You are right that none of Jesus' brothers or sisters are present at the crucifixion. In fact, His brothers did not believe Jesus' claim of divinity (John 7:1-5). That is why on the day of His crucifixion, Jesus asked the disciple John to take care of His mother.
What sort of loving brothers and sisters were they then? They didn't bother seeing their flesh and blood brother on his day of execution or support their heart-broken mother? They all didn't bother showing and left her in the care of an outsider all because they didn't believe he was divine?
Chapabel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:56 pm
However, after the resurrection they realized how wrong they had been and they are found with Jesus' disciples in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). Joseph is not mentioned after Jesus was 12 years old, so it is supposed he died prior to Jesus beginning His earthly ministry.
In real life, the very first person you would see after you were tortured and killed then magically resurrected would be your own grief-stricken mother.

Instead we get him popping up in front of his disciples and exactly 500 un-named witnesses like a jack-in-the-box. His own mother wasn't even considered. Joseph would more likely have fucked off from his crazy family, and who would have blamed him?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:10 am

SEG wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:41 am
Origen was NOT a Church Father, according to Moon. Just because they confirmed it, doesn't mean that it wasn't forged.
Of course he was. He wasn't an apostle, but he is considered an early church father. Moon? Moon who? You neglected to tell who these "modern scholars" are who claim the epistles of James and Jude are. Moon, my butt...
What sort of loving brothers and sisters were they then? They didn't bother seeing their flesh and blood brother on his day of execution or support their heart-broken mother? They all didn't bother showing and left her in the care of an outsider all because they didn't believe he was divine?
The same kind of Jewish men who were terrified of the Pharisees. You don't understand Hebrew customs at all. The religious leaders had already claimed that if any confessed faith in Jesus as the Christ they were to be excommunicated from the synagogue. This meant they would loose all associations. They would not be able to conduct any type of business of any sort with other Jews. They would totally ostracized from society. Even though the brothers may have loved Jesus, their unbelief caused them to forsake Him because of their fear of the religious leaders. After witnessing the resurrection, they were convinced Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah, and didn't care what penalty the religious leaders imposed. Their outspokenness after the resurrection validates their witnessing of the risen Jesus.
In real life, the very first person you would see after you were tortured and killed then magically resurrected would be your own grief-stricken mother.

Instead we get him popping up in front of his disciples and exactly 500 un-named witnesses like a jack-in-the-box. His own mother wasn't even considered.
Actually, the first people Jesus appeared to were the women who went to the tomb to finish the embalming. But, let me ask you this, how do you know Jesus didn't appear to His mother prior top meeting the disciples? Just because the Gospels don't record a possible meeting doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not everything Jesus did after the resurrection is recorded. It's quite possible He appeared to Mary early that first Easter morning. But, even if He didn't that still does not change anything. The important fact is He did rise. You're trying to create a controversy where one doesn't exist. Just because you may have done things different doesn't mean God is obligated to operate the way you think He should.

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