What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

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Claire
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Claire » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 am

Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:In real life, the very first person you would see after you were tortured and killed then magically resurrected would be your own grief-stricken mother.

Instead we get him popping up in front of his disciples and exactly 500 un-named witnesses like a jack-in-the-box. His own mother wasn't even considered.
Actually, the first people Jesus appeared to were the women who went to the tomb to finish the embalming. But, let me ask you this, how do you know Jesus didn't appear to His mother prior top meeting the disciples? Just because the Gospels don't record a possible meeting doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not everything Jesus did after the resurrection is recorded. It's quite possible He appeared to Mary early that first Easter morning. But, even if He didn't that still does not change anything. The important fact is He did rise. You're trying to create a controversy where one doesn't exist. Just because you may have done things different doesn't mean God is obligated to operate the way you think He should.
It's like I've told Chapabel, not everything there is to know in the Bible. And, despite what people like him believe, The Lord has continued to speak to people throughout the ages, and will continue to. It didn't stop with those mentioned in the Bible. For example, Maria Valtorta, who between 1943 and 1947 reported visions of Jesus and Mary, and claimed personal conversations with, and dictations from Jesus. All her writings were compiled into a multi volume book called Poem of the Man-God. Below are just a few of the chapters regarding Jesus's resurrection:

Chapter 612
The Morning of the Resurrection

Chapter 613
The Resurrection

Chapter 614
Jesus Appears to His Mother

Chapter 615
The Pious Women at the Sepulchre.

Chapter 616
Jesus's Comment on the Resurrection

Chapter 617
Jesus Appears to Lazarus

On and on.

Source: http://www.poem.strefa.pl/index.htm

These volumes truly are a gift of God, just as the Bible is, or anything else that consists of His words. And, you'd find out by reading that Jesus appeared/spoke to His mother first after He resurrected.

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SEG
Posts: 1497
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by SEG » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:47 pm

Claire wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 am

These volumes truly are a gift of God, just as the Bible is, or anything else that consists of His words. And, you'd find out by reading that Jesus appeared/spoke to His mother first after He resurrected.
Ok that makes a little more sense. What have you to say about this? https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT?

IS "THE POEM OF THE MAN-GOD" SIMPLY A BAD NOVEL?

Maria Valtorta's multi-volume life of Jesus flirts with heresy and
exhibits bad taste. Its claim to authenticity have been rejected by Rome.

by Father Mitch Pacwa, S.J.

"The Poem of the Man-God" is a five-volume "narrative" of the life of
Jesus written in the 1940s by a sickly Italian woman named Maria Valtorta.
"Poem" purports to fill in the details of Jesus' life left blank by the
four Gospels. Such narratives have been produced since the second century
A.D. Some were written by gnostic heretics. Some by New Agers and
occultists. And some were produced by pious Christians who made up stories
about Jesus to edify their readers and listeners.

The four Gospels do not give a biography of Jesus--or of anyone else in
His life. Their purpose is evangelical and theological--to proclaim the
Good News that human beings need for their salvation. Thus, for centuries,
the "hidden life" of Jesus has been the subject for speculation.

"The Poem of the Man-God" is in this tradition of apocryphal literature on
New Testament themes. Valtorta claimed that she was the "secretary" of
Jesus and Mary, and was setting down the divinely inspired truth about
Jesus' life. The Church has rejected this claim. Nevertheless, "Poem" has
become quite popular, particularly among Catholics as well.

Remarkably, the book has grown in popularity in part because its champions
claim that high Church officials--including one Pope--endorsed it. They
haven't. In fact, "Poem" was included on the Index of Forbidden books
until the abolition of the Index in the 1960s. No less an authority than
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of
the Faith, reiterates the Church's rejection of the claims made for "The
Poem of the Man-God."

How did "The Poem of the Man-God" come to be, and how has the notion
become widely accepted that it contains important religious truth?

Maria Valtorta, author of "Poem," was born in 1897 into a sadly
dysfunctional family, where she suffered emotional abuse at the hands of a
despotic mother. When she was 23, she was attacked and beaten by a mugger.
She was never completely well after that. From 1933 on, she was unable to
leave her bed.

Maria began to receive "dictations" on Good Friday, 1943. In 1947, she
handed over 10,000 handwritten pages to her spiritual director, Father
Romuald Migliorini, O.S.M. Father Migliorini typed them and Father
Corrado Berti, O.S.M. bound them. Fr. Berti, brought them to Father later
Cardinal Augustin Bea, S.J., spiritual director to Pope Pius XII.

Did Pope Pius read the whole manuscript or parts? If only part, which
part? Advertisements by the Canadian Central distributors for Valtorta
(CEDIVAL) quote Father Bea: "I have read in typed manuscripts many of the
books written by Maria Valtorta . . . As far as exegesis is concerned, I
did not find any errors in the parts which I examined." Notice, he read
only parts of the books. Which were they?

On Feb. 26, 1948, Fathers Migliorini, Berti and A. Cecchin enjoyed a
private audience with Pope Pius XII, as listed in L'Osservatore Romano's
daily announcement of audiences. Standing in St. Peter's Square after the
audience, Father Berti wrote down Pope Pius' words as he remembered them.
These words were "not" printed in L'Osservatore Romano, but Father Berti
remembered the Pope saying:

"Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion about its
origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand.
One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all
authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are."

CEDIVAL calls this a "Supreme Pontifical Imprimatur," where "he took upon
himself to pass the first official judgment on these writings." CEDIVAL
glues this inside the cover, though the publisher does not print an
imprimatur. The reason: it has none!

Confident of papal approval, Father Berti brought the books to the Vatican
press. However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the "Poem," ordering
Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his
typed versions.

Despite his signed promise, in 1952 Father Berti went to publisher
Emiliano Pisani. Though aware of the Holy Office's opposition, Pisani
printed the first volume in 1956, and a new volume each year through 1959.

When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the "Poem" and
condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden
Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it
published. L'Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the
condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, "A Badly
Fictionalized Life of Jesus," to explain it.

The article complained that the "Poem" broke Canon Law. "Though they treat
exclusively of religious issues, these volumes do not have an
"imprimatur," which is required by Canon 1385, sect. 1, n. 2."

Second, the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the
evangelists, who portray Jesus as "humble, reserved; His discourses are
lean, incisive." Valtorta's fictionalized history makes Jesus sound "like
a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of
God," or teach theology in modern terms. The Blessed Mother speaks like a
"propagandist" for modern Marian theology.

Third, "some passages are rather risque," like the "immodest" dance before
Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73). There are "many historical, geographical and
other blunders." For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195,
223), centuries before screws existed.

There are theological errors, as when "Jesus says" (vol. 1, p. 30) that
Eve's temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent
sensuously "caressed" her. While she "began the sin by herself," she
"accomplished it with her companion." Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta
may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.

Vol. 1, p. 7, oddly claims, "Mary can be called the 'second-born' of the
Father . . ." Her explanation limits the meaning, avoiding evidence of an
authentic heresy; but it does not take away the basic impression that she
wants to construct a new mariology, which simply goes beyond the limits of
propriety." "Another strange and imprecise statement" made of Mary (vol.
4, p. 240) is that she will "be second to Peter with regard to
ecclesiastical hierarchy. . . " Our Lady surpasses St. Peter's holiness,
but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St. Peter.

Further, Valtorta did not claim to write a novel, but called herself a
"secretary" of Jesus and Mary, so, "in all parts on reads the words 'Jesus
says. . .' or 'Mary says . . .'" The Church takes this claim to revelation
very seriously, since it has the God-given duty to discern what is or is
not truly from the Holy Spirit. In Valtorta's case, the Church decided
against Divine inspiration.

Finally, "Poem" is condemned for reasons of disobedience. Competent Church
authority had prohibited the printing of Valtorta's work.

Pope John's approval of the condemnation of the "Poem of the Man-God"
should have ended the issue, but it did not. The publishers printed a
second edition of 10 volumes, which the Church condemned in another
front-page article in L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 1, 1961. This second
Italian edition was later translated into German, French, Spanish and
English.

CEDIVAL asserts that a "modernist clan in the Church" . . .
"surreptitiously attempted to seize the manuscripts and destroy them,"
claiming "firsthand documentation on this." These "enemies" included Msgr.
Pepe and Father Berruti, the Holy Office censors.

I asked the head of CEDIVAL, Prof. Leo Brodeur, for evidence that Msgr.
Pepe and Father Berruti held any modernist heresies, but he had none. He
assumed they were modernists because the "Poem" claims "to help the Church
fight against the terrible heresy of modernism." If the "Poem's enemies
are modernists, Msgr. Pepe and Father Berruti must be modernists, too.

Such assertions are unacceptable. Accusations of modernism or any other
heresy without proof is slander.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, present head of the Sacred Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the same office that condemned the
"Poem"), informed Cardinal Siri in 1985 of the "Poem's condemnation:

After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing
and distribution of the work was permitted, they were reminded again in
L'Osservatore Romano (June 15, 1966) that "The Index retains its moral
force despite its dissolution."

More recently (April 17, 1993, Prot. N. 144/58i), he wrote:

"The 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in the work, "The Poem of the
Man-God," are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in
her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in
origin."

The best that can be said for "The Poem of the Man-God" is that it is a
bad novel. This was summed up in the L'Osservatore Romano headline, which
called the book "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus."

At worst, "Poem's" impact is more serious. Though many people claim that
"Poem" helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are
still being disobedient to the Church's decisions regarding the reading of
"Poem." How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help
in renewing the Church in these difficult times?

When Catholics insist on reading "Poem," despite Church condemnation, I
make these requests: First, read three hours of Scripture for every one
hour spent in the "Poem." The Church guarantees that the Bible is God's
Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Church has judged the "Poem" to be
a poorly done human work. Second, read solid Catholic theology books in
addition to Scripture. G.K. Chesterton, Frank Sheed, Archbishop Sheen's
"Life of Christ" and many other works are excellent starts. Third,
maintain a strong prayer life, drawing closer to Christ Jesus, Our Lord,
at Mass and at eucharistic adoration, and to our Blessed Mother Mary,
especially in the Rosary.

If sheep insist on bad pasturage, at least let them take antidotes.

This article appeared in February 1994 edition of "New Covenant"
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

User avatar
Chapabel
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:46 pm

Claire wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 am
It's like I've told Chapabel, not everything there is to know in the Bible. And, despite what people like him believe, The Lord has continued to speak to people throughout the ages, and will continue to. It didn't stop with those mentioned in the Bible. For example, Maria Valtorta, who between 1943 and 1947 reported visions of Jesus and Mary, and claimed personal conversations with, and dictations from Jesus. All her writings were compiled into a multi volume book called Poem of the Man-God. Below are just a few of the chapters regarding Jesus's resurrection:
Claire, your own church, your own faith group had denounced the Poem. The fact that you still cling to it is evidence that you are blind to the truth. You have created your own truth despite the findings of your own church. Oh well, good luck with that...

Claire
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Claire » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:44 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:47 pm
Claire wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 am

These volumes truly are a gift of God, just as the Bible is, or anything else that consists of His words. And, you'd find out by reading that Jesus appeared/spoke to His mother first after He resurrected.
Ok that makes a little more sense. What have you to say about this? https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT?

IS "THE POEM OF THE MAN-GOD" SIMPLY A BAD NOVEL?

Maria Valtorta's multi-volume life of Jesus flirts with heresy and
exhibits bad taste. Its claim to authenticity have been rejected by Rome.

by Father Mitch Pacwa, S.J.

"The Poem of the Man-God" is a five-volume "narrative" of the life of
Jesus written in the 1940s by a sickly Italian woman named Maria Valtorta.
"Poem" purports to fill in the details of Jesus' life left blank by the
four Gospels. Such narratives have been produced since the second century
A.D. Some were written by gnostic heretics. Some by New Agers and
occultists. And some were produced by pious Christians who made up stories
about Jesus to edify their readers and listeners.

The four Gospels do not give a biography of Jesus--or of anyone else in
His life. Their purpose is evangelical and theological--to proclaim the
Good News that human beings need for their salvation. Thus, for centuries,
the "hidden life" of Jesus has been the subject for speculation.

"The Poem of the Man-God" is in this tradition of apocryphal literature on
New Testament themes. Valtorta claimed that she was the "secretary" of
Jesus and Mary, and was setting down the divinely inspired truth about
Jesus' life. The Church has rejected this claim. Nevertheless, "Poem" has
become quite popular, particularly among Catholics as well.

Remarkably, the book has grown in popularity in part because its champions
claim that high Church officials--including one Pope--endorsed it. They
haven't. In fact, "Poem" was included on the Index of Forbidden books
until the abolition of the Index in the 1960s. No less an authority than
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of
the Faith, reiterates the Church's rejection of the claims made for "The
Poem of the Man-God."

How did "The Poem of the Man-God" come to be, and how has the notion
become widely accepted that it contains important religious truth?

Maria Valtorta, author of "Poem," was born in 1897 into a sadly
dysfunctional family, where she suffered emotional abuse at the hands of a
despotic mother. When she was 23, she was attacked and beaten by a mugger.
She was never completely well after that. From 1933 on, she was unable to
leave her bed.

Maria began to receive "dictations" on Good Friday, 1943. In 1947, she
handed over 10,000 handwritten pages to her spiritual director, Father
Romuald Migliorini, O.S.M. Father Migliorini typed them and Father
Corrado Berti, O.S.M. bound them. Fr. Berti, brought them to Father later
Cardinal Augustin Bea, S.J., spiritual director to Pope Pius XII.

Did Pope Pius read the whole manuscript or parts? If only part, which
part? Advertisements by the Canadian Central distributors for Valtorta
(CEDIVAL) quote Father Bea: "I have read in typed manuscripts many of the
books written by Maria Valtorta . . . As far as exegesis is concerned, I
did not find any errors in the parts which I examined." Notice, he read
only parts of the books. Which were they?

On Feb. 26, 1948, Fathers Migliorini, Berti and A. Cecchin enjoyed a
private audience with Pope Pius XII, as listed in L'Osservatore Romano's
daily announcement of audiences. Standing in St. Peter's Square after the
audience, Father Berti wrote down Pope Pius' words as he remembered them.
These words were "not" printed in L'Osservatore Romano, but Father Berti
remembered the Pope saying:

"Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion about its
origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand.
One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all
authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are."

CEDIVAL calls this a "Supreme Pontifical Imprimatur," where "he took upon
himself to pass the first official judgment on these writings." CEDIVAL
glues this inside the cover, though the publisher does not print an
imprimatur. The reason: it has none!

Confident of papal approval, Father Berti brought the books to the Vatican
press. However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr.
Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the "Poem," ordering
Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his
typed versions.

Despite his signed promise, in 1952 Father Berti went to publisher
Emiliano Pisani. Though aware of the Holy Office's opposition, Pisani
printed the first volume in 1956, and a new volume each year through 1959.

When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the "Poem" and
condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden
Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it
published. L'Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the
condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, "A Badly
Fictionalized Life of Jesus," to explain it.

The article complained that the "Poem" broke Canon Law. "Though they treat
exclusively of religious issues, these volumes do not have an
"imprimatur," which is required by Canon 1385, sect. 1, n. 2."

Second, the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the
evangelists, who portray Jesus as "humble, reserved; His discourses are
lean, incisive." Valtorta's fictionalized history makes Jesus sound "like
a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of
God," or teach theology in modern terms. The Blessed Mother speaks like a
"propagandist" for modern Marian theology.

Third, "some passages are rather risque," like the "immodest" dance before
Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73). There are "many historical, geographical and
other blunders." For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195,
223), centuries before screws existed.

There are theological errors, as when "Jesus says" (vol. 1, p. 30) that
Eve's temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent
sensuously "caressed" her. While she "began the sin by herself," she
"accomplished it with her companion." Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta
may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.

Vol. 1, p. 7, oddly claims, "Mary can be called the 'second-born' of the
Father . . ." Her explanation limits the meaning, avoiding evidence of an
authentic heresy; but it does not take away the basic impression that she
wants to construct a new mariology, which simply goes beyond the limits of
propriety." "Another strange and imprecise statement" made of Mary (vol.
4, p. 240) is that she will "be second to Peter with regard to
ecclesiastical hierarchy. . . " Our Lady surpasses St. Peter's holiness,
but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St. Peter.

Further, Valtorta did not claim to write a novel, but called herself a
"secretary" of Jesus and Mary, so, "in all parts on reads the words 'Jesus
says. . .' or 'Mary says . . .'" The Church takes this claim to revelation
very seriously, since it has the God-given duty to discern what is or is
not truly from the Holy Spirit. In Valtorta's case, the Church decided
against Divine inspiration.

Finally, "Poem" is condemned for reasons of disobedience. Competent Church
authority had prohibited the printing of Valtorta's work.

Pope John's approval of the condemnation of the "Poem of the Man-God"
should have ended the issue, but it did not. The publishers printed a
second edition of 10 volumes, which the Church condemned in another
front-page article in L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 1, 1961. This second
Italian edition was later translated into German, French, Spanish and
English.

CEDIVAL asserts that a "modernist clan in the Church" . . .
"surreptitiously attempted to seize the manuscripts and destroy them,"
claiming "firsthand documentation on this." These "enemies" included Msgr.
Pepe and Father Berruti, the Holy Office censors.

I asked the head of CEDIVAL, Prof. Leo Brodeur, for evidence that Msgr.
Pepe and Father Berruti held any modernist heresies, but he had none. He
assumed they were modernists because the "Poem" claims "to help the Church
fight against the terrible heresy of modernism." If the "Poem's enemies
are modernists, Msgr. Pepe and Father Berruti must be modernists, too.

Such assertions are unacceptable. Accusations of modernism or any other
heresy without proof is slander.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, present head of the Sacred Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the same office that condemned the
"Poem"), informed Cardinal Siri in 1985 of the "Poem's condemnation:

After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing
and distribution of the work was permitted, they were reminded again in
L'Osservatore Romano (June 15, 1966) that "The Index retains its moral
force despite its dissolution."

More recently (April 17, 1993, Prot. N. 144/58i), he wrote:

"The 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in the work, "The Poem of the
Man-God," are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in
her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in
origin."

The best that can be said for "The Poem of the Man-God" is that it is a
bad novel. This was summed up in the L'Osservatore Romano headline, which
called the book "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus."

At worst, "Poem's" impact is more serious. Though many people claim that
"Poem" helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are
still being disobedient to the Church's decisions regarding the reading of
"Poem." How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help
in renewing the Church in these difficult times?

When Catholics insist on reading "Poem," despite Church condemnation, I
make these requests: First, read three hours of Scripture for every one
hour spent in the "Poem." The Church guarantees that the Bible is God's
Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Church has judged the "Poem" to be
a poorly done human work. Second, read solid Catholic theology books in
addition to Scripture. G.K. Chesterton, Frank Sheed, Archbishop Sheen's
"Life of Christ" and many other works are excellent starts. Third,
maintain a strong prayer life, drawing closer to Christ Jesus, Our Lord,
at Mass and at eucharistic adoration, and to our Blessed Mother Mary,
especially in the Rosary.

If sheep insist on bad pasturage, at least let them take antidotes.

This article appeared in February 1994 edition of "New Covenant"
What do I think about what in particular regarding this?

Claire
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Claire » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:46 pm

Claire wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:In real life, the very first person you would see after you were tortured and killed then magically resurrected would be your own grief-stricken mother.

Instead we get him popping up in front of his disciples and exactly 500 un-named witnesses like a jack-in-the-box. His own mother wasn't even considered.
Actually, the first people Jesus appeared to were the women who went to the tomb to finish the embalming. But, let me ask you this, how do you know Jesus didn't appear to His mother prior top meeting the disciples? Just because the Gospels don't record a possible meeting doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not everything Jesus did after the resurrection is recorded. It's quite possible He appeared to Mary early that first Easter morning. But, even if He didn't that still does not change anything. The important fact is He did rise. You're trying to create a controversy where one doesn't exist. Just because you may have done things different doesn't mean God is obligated to operate the way you think He should.
It's like I've told Chapabel, not everything there is to know in the Bible. And, despite what people like him believe, The Lord has continued to speak to people throughout the ages, and will continue to. It didn't stop with those mentioned in the Bible. For example, Maria Valtorta, who between 1943 and 1947 reported visions of Jesus and Mary, and claimed personal conversations with, and dictations from Jesus. All her writings were compiled into a multi volume book called Poem of the Man-God. Below are just a few of the chapters regarding Jesus's resurrection:

Chapter 612
The Morning of the Resurrection

Chapter 613
The Resurrection

Chapter 614
Jesus Appears to His Mother

Chapter 615
The Pious Women at the Sepulchre.

Chapter 616
Jesus's Comment on the Resurrection

Chapter 617
Jesus Appears to Lazarus

On and on.

Source: http://www.poem.strefa.pl/index.htm

These volumes truly are a gift of God, just as the Bible is, or anything else that consists of His words. And, you'd find out by reading that Jesus appeared/spoke to His mother first after He resurrected.
Chapabel wrote:Claire, your own church, your own faith group had denounced the Poem. The fact that you still cling to it is evidence that you are blind to the truth. You have created your own truth despite the findings of your own church. Oh well, good luck with that...
You said this three months ago, and apparently you forgot what I said about the Catholic Church's actual stance on these volumes is. Better go re-educate yourself again. And, no matter what The Catholic Church official position, even if 100% against, it doesn't mean they'd be right.
Last edited by Claire on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Chapabel
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:46 pm

You said this three months ago, and apparently you forgot what I said about the Catholic Church's actual stance on these volumes is. Better go re-educate yourself again. And, no matter what The Catholic Church official position, even if 100% against, it doesn't mean they'd be right.
My memory is very clear concerning the position of your church concerning the poem. Allow me to remind you of the Church’s position on the poem:
The official Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, summarized the findings of the Holy Office in an article titled "A Life of Jesus Badly Fictionalized." When the publishers tried to get around this condemnation the next year by publishing a new ten-volume set, the work again was condemned in the Vatican paper which called it "a mountain of childishness, of fantasies, and of historical and exegetical falsehoods, diluted in a subtly sensual atmosphere."

In correspondence with Catholic Answers, Apostolic Nuncio Archbishop Agostino Cacciavillan, pointed out that, although the Index was abolished in 1965, it still retains its moral force, and faithful Catholics should heed the reservations and cautions expressed in it.

Claire
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Claire » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:02 am

Claire wrote:
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:In real life, the very first person you would see after you were tortured and killed then magically resurrected would be your own grief-stricken mother.

Instead we get him popping up in front of his disciples and exactly 500 un-named witnesses like a jack-in-the-box. His own mother wasn't even considered.
Actually, the first people Jesus appeared to were the women who went to the tomb to finish the embalming. But, let me ask you this, how do you know Jesus didn't appear to His mother prior top meeting the disciples? Just because the Gospels don't record a possible meeting doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not everything Jesus did after the resurrection is recorded. It's quite possible He appeared to Mary early that first Easter morning. But, even if He didn't that still does not change anything. The important fact is He did rise. You're trying to create a controversy where one doesn't exist. Just because you may have done things different doesn't mean God is obligated to operate the way you think He should.
It's like I've told Chapabel, not everything there is to know in the Bible. And, despite what people like him believe, The Lord has continued to speak to people throughout the ages, and will continue to. It didn't stop with those mentioned in the Bible. For example, Maria Valtorta, who between 1943 and 1947 reported visions of Jesus and Mary, and claimed personal conversations with, and dictations from Jesus. All her writings were compiled into a multi volume book called Poem of the Man-God. Below are just a few of the chapters regarding Jesus's resurrection:

Chapter 612
The Morning of the Resurrection

Chapter 613
The Resurrection

Chapter 614
Jesus Appears to His Mother

Chapter 615
The Pious Women at the Sepulchre.

Chapter 616
Jesus's Comment on the Resurrection

Chapter 617
Jesus Appears to Lazarus

On and on.

Source: http://www.poem.strefa.pl/index.htm

These volumes truly are a gift of God, just as the Bible is, or anything else that consists of His words. And, you'd find out by reading that Jesus appeared/spoke to His mother first after He resurrected.
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Claire, your own church, your own faith group had denounced the Poem. The fact that you still cling to it is evidence that you are blind to the truth. You have created your own truth despite the findings of your own church. Oh well, good luck with that...
You said this three months ago, and apparently you forgot what I said about the Catholic Church's actual stance on these volumes is. Better go re-educate yourself again. And, no matter what The Catholic Church official position, even if 100% against, it doesn't mean they'd be right.
My memory is very clear concerning the position of your church concerning the poem. Allow me to remind you of the Church’s position on the poem:
The official Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, summarized the findings of the Holy Office in an article titled "A Life of Jesus Badly Fictionalized." When the publishers tried to get around this condemnation the next year by publishing a new ten-volume set, the work again was condemned in the Vatican paper which called it "a mountain of childishness, of fantasies, and of historical and exegetical falsehoods, diluted in a subtly sensual atmosphere."

In correspondence with Catholic Answers, Apostolic Nuncio Archbishop Agostino Cacciavillan, pointed out that, although the Index was abolished in 1965, it still retains its moral force, and faithful Catholics should heed the reservations and cautions expressed in it.
You're taking the views of a couple of people who are really just giving their opinion, and not acting in an official capacity. I'm aware that many people have a false notion of the inner workings of the Catholic Church. Maria Valtorta's writings have supporters and opponents within the Catholic Church, but if it was deemed to be spiritually harmful, then it would have been prioritized for investigation. Instead, the Church's official stance is that any Catholic is free to believe in Valtorta's writings or not. And, below is what I actually quoted from in regards to the Church's position on this:
As far as a more thorough approval beyond permission to publish her writings and the imprimaturs that various bishops have given to her work or to anthologies of her work, the Church has not yet investigated Maria Valtorta’s person and writings and ever pronounced a statement in a canonical or ecclesiastical form of an official and universally binding decree of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith as to whether it is of supernatural origin; and so Catholics are free to form their own opinion as to the supernatural character of her writings. Many bishops, renowned Catholic theologians, prominent Catholic lay faithful, and even a beatified person have publicly affirmed their belief in the supernatural character of her writings, and they and all Catholics are entirely at liberty to do so.
Source: http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/posit ... torta.html

And, don't come to me telling me that my own Church is opposed to something, when only are they not opposed to Poem of the Man-God, but if they were truly against Catholics believing it, then you would just tell me that's just another Catholic lie, and if I wanted to be a true follower of Christ, I should find a "real" Bible believing Church. Now, you can accuse me of putting words in your mouth, but you've already told me such things over less.

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Chapabel
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:41 pm

Claire wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:02 am
You're taking the views of a couple of people who are really just giving their opinion, and not acting in an official capacity. I'm aware that many people have a false notion of the inner workings of the Catholic Church. Maria Valtorta's writings have supporters and opponents within the Catholic Church, but if it was deemed to be spiritually harmful, then it would have been prioritized for investigation. Instead, the Church's official stance is that any Catholic is free to believe in Valtorta's writings or not. And, below is what I actually quoted from in regards to the Church's position on this:
A couple of people? Here is a summary from EWTN, you know the Catholic TV channel: https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT
The best that can be said for "The Poem of the Man-God" is that it is a
bad novel. This was summed up in the L'Osservatore Romano headline, which
called the book "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus."

At worst, "Poem's" impact is more serious. Though many people claim that
"Poem" helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are
still being disobedient to the Church's decisions regarding the reading of
"Poem." How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help
in renewing the Church in these difficult times?
I've already posted the most official Catholic position I can find from this site: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-can-yo ... he-man-god

From what I can tell, the link you posted has absolutely no official connection to the Catholic Church. It seems to be some renegade site operating without approval from your church.

Claire
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Claire » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:07 am

Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:You're taking the views of a couple of people who are really just giving their opinion, and not acting in an official capacity.
A couple of people? Here is a summary from EWTN, you know the Catholic TV channel: https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/VALTORTA.TXT
The best that can be said for "The Poem of the Man-God" is that it is a
bad novel. This was summed up in the L'Osservatore Romano headline, which
called the book "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus."

At worst, "Poem's" impact is more serious. Though many people claim that
"Poem" helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are
still being disobedient to the Church's decisions regarding the reading of
"Poem." How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help
in renewing the Church in these difficult times?
I've already posted the most official Catholic position I can find from this site: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-can-yo ... he-man-god
You do realize that EWTN is not the official mouthpiece for the Vatican? It's an American broadcasting network and they do not speak for all Catholics all of the time. Have you heard of the Catholic League, Chapabel? From an outsiders perspective, they probably look like a very authoritative and important group within Catholicism. It may surprise you to learn that anytime the founder of the CL opens his mouth on television, there is a collective groan from a large percentage of American Catholics. It's because these groups are not an authority within the Church. Furthermore, the EWTN article is the written opinion of one priest not speaking for the Vatican itself, and the Catholic News article includes quotes from the same Catholic newspaper your earlier post included quotes from. None of this is an official decree from Vatican authorities.
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:I'm aware that many people have a false notion of the inner workings of the Catholic Church. Maria Valtorta's writings have supporters and opponents within the Catholic Church, but if it was deemed to be spiritually harmful, then it would have been prioritized for investigation. Instead, the Church's official stance is that any Catholic is free to believe in Valtorta's writings or not. And, below is what I actually quoted from in regards to the Church's position on this:
As far as a more thorough approval beyond permission to publish her writings and the imprimaturs that various bishops have given to her work or to anthologies of her work, the Church has not yet investigated Maria Valtorta’s person and writings and ever pronounced a statement in a canonical or ecclesiastical form of an official and universally binding decree of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith as to whether it is of supernatural origin; and so Catholics are free to form their own opinion as to the supernatural character of her writings. Many bishops, renowned Catholic theologians, prominent Catholic lay faithful, and even a beatified person have publicly affirmed their belief in the supernatural character of her writings, and they and all Catholics are entirely at liberty to do so.
Source: http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/posit ... torta.html
From what I can tell, the link you posted has absolutely no official connection to the Catholic Church. It seems to be some renegade site operating without approval from your church.
The site I quoted is also an unofficial source, but that is my point. You have individuals within the Catholic Church who may be for or against. But, the official Church stance on the writings of Maria Valtorta are that any Catholic may choose to believe or not believe the validity of them. And, if they thought her writings were spiritually harmful work, then they would have conducted a full investigation into her and the writings. You should read my link in full if you haven't.

You acknowledge out one side of your mouth that not everything is in the Bible, which is true, then out the other say you don't believe anything outside the Bible. How do you reconcile acknowledging there's more to know, and not believe anything outside the Bible? And, what kills me is if Maria Valtorta had lived thousands of years ago, and her writings were included in the compiling of the Bible, you wouldn't be condemning it right now. I'm not saying discernment is bad, or that you should believe every spiritual claim, but you have read little to none of it, and have already written it off as false. If you truly think not everything is in the Bible, and if you truly believe The Lord rose from the dead and is alive, then I hope you don't keep yourself closed off to the idea that He has spoken to people outside of those mentioned in the Bible, even to this day. And, those who He talks to will probably write down His words, and share with the world.

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Chapabel
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Re: What were the earliest mentions of Christianity?

Post by Chapabel » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:49 pm

Claire wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:07 am
You acknowledge out one side of your mouth that not everything is in the Bible, which is true, then out the other say you don't believe anything outside the Bible. How do you reconcile acknowledging there's more to know, and not believe anything outside the Bible? And, what kills me is if Maria Valtorta had lived thousands of years ago, and her writings were included in the compiling of the Bible, you wouldn't be condemning it right now. I'm not saying discernment is bad, or that you should believe every spiritual claim, but you have read little to none of it, and have already written it off as false. If you truly think not everything is in the Bible, and if you truly believe The Lord rose from the dead and is alive, then I hope you don't keep yourself closed off to the idea that He has spoken to people outside of those mentioned in the Bible, even to this day. And, those who He talks to will probably write down His words, and share with the world.
When I agreed that not everything is in the Bible, I mean not every situation we may come across is addressed in the Bible. For instance, our pastor down in Georgia related a story how the seminary did not prepare him for everything. At his first pastorate, which happened to be in Canada, a couple came to him wanting to know what to do about their daughter being pregnant...by their son. That specific issue is not addressed in the Bible. That is when we need to claim the promise found in John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Not every circumstance we face is specifically addressed in the Bible. But for those of us who are saved and have the Spirit of Christ alive in us, He will teach us what to do in these different situations. We don't need to read anything outside of the Bible for spiritual guidance. You should know this already, but your spiritual immaturity is hindering your understanding.

Just out of curiosity, would you relate your salvation experience? I am very interested in understanding when and how you became a Christian.

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