Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

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SEG
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Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:09 am

Here are my reasons why:

!. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Old or New Testament.
2. Jesus never taught the concept. He always mentioned God as his superior, never his equal.
3. 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions reject it
4. The Holy Ghost is not a person, it's a spirit, whatever that is.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Chapabel » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:22 pm

You are completely entitled to your opinion about the Trinity, but your opinion is based on misinformation. Allow me to address your complaints.

1. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Old or New Testament. Well, the doctrine is not taught in the OT, but there is ample evidence that the principle was alive and well. Here are a few verses from the OT that indicate all three persons of the Trinity were active:
GOD THE FATHER
Psalm 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

GOD THE SON
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Jesus used this verse when He questioned the Pharisees about the Messiah Matt.22:42-44)
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The Doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the NT:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2. Jesus never taught the concept. He always mentioned God as his superior, never his equal. In His human form Jesus willingly submitted to the authority of the Father, but Jesus made it very clear He was equal to the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The Jews understood that Jesus claimed to be equal with the Father: John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

3. 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions reject it. So? 2 out of 3 Abrahamic religions also reject Jesus Christ as the only way to Heaven. Truth is not dependent on popular opinion.

4. The Holy Ghost is not a person, it's a spirit, whatever that is. Jesus referred the the Holy Spirit as a person:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Again, you can believe whatever you want. But your claims for rejecting the Trinity are based on falsehoods.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:36 am

Chapabel wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:22 pm
You are completely entitled to your opinion about the Trinity, but your opinion is based on misinformation. Allow me to address your complaints.

1. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Old or New Testament. Well, the doctrine is not taught in the OT, but there is ample evidence that the principle was alive and well. Here are a few verses from the OT that indicate all three persons of the Trinity were active:
GOD THE FATHER
Psalm 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

GOD THE SON
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Jesus used this verse when He questioned the Pharisees about the Messiah Matt.22:42-44)
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The Doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the NT:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary tells us,
“The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT [New Testament]”
The word "Trinity" was never written in the Old or New Testaments and you haven't shown that the biblical authors had ever heard of it. Jesus was supposed to be a Jew, yet they have always rejected Jesus being divine. You only have to look at the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4. See:
Deuteronomy 6:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a]

Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone
2. Jesus never taught the concept. He always mentioned God as his superior, never his equal. In His human form Jesus willingly submitted to the authority of the Father, but Jesus made it very clear He was equal to the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The Jews understood that Jesus claimed to be equal with the Father: John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Then why did some of the most important church fathers such as Eusebius and Origen adhere to subordinationism ?
Origen taught that Jesus was deuteros theos (secondary god),[2] a notion borrowed from Hellenistic philosophy. He also said the Son was "distinct" from the Father.[3] Finally Origen insisted that the Son is other in substance than the Father.[4] It should be noticed that some of these same references are used to defend the concept of the Trinity. However, subordinationism is not a differentiation or distinction between persons in the Trinity. In this regard they agree. Subordinationism rather suggests that the Son (and Spirit) are other in substance than the Father.[4]

Clement of Rome (composed late 1st or early 2nd century): "The apostles received the gospel for us from Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was sent from God. So Christ is from God, and the apostles are from Christ: thus both came in proper order by the will of God."[5] Also, "Let all the heathen know that thou [the Father] art God alone, and that Jesus Christ is thy Servant..."[6]

Ignatius of Antioch (50-115): "Jesus Christ ... is the expressed purpose of the Father, just as the bishops who have been appointed throughout the world exist by the purpose of Jesus Christ."[7] "Be subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was subject to the Father and the apostles were subject to Christ and the Father, so that there may be unity both fleshly and spiritual."[8] "All of you are to follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery [the elders] as the apostles."[9]

Epistle of Barnabas
(c. 100): "[...] if the Lord endured to suffer for our soul, He being Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' [...]"[10] "For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, 'Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beasts of the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea.' And the Lord said, on beholding the fair creature man, 'Increase, and multiply, and replenish the earth.' These things [were spoken] to the Son."[11]

Justin Martyr (100-165) : "I shall attempt to persuade you, [...] that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things [...] wishes to announce to them."[12] "But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. [...] And His Son, [...] the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God's ordering all things through Him; [...] But 'Jesus', His name as man and Saviour, has [...] significance. For He was made man [...] having been conceived according to the will of God the Father."[13]

Didache (c. 1st century): "We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David your servant, which you have made known unto us through Jesus your Servant."[14] "We thank you, our Father, for the life and knowledge, which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever!"[15]

Tertullian (AD 165-225): professed that the Father, Son, and Spirit "are inseparable from each other." His "assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement," according to Tertullian, "is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated [...] a separation among the Father, [...] Son, and [...] Spirit." Tertullian said "it is not by [...] diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division [...] but by distinction; [...] they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, [...] Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He [...] who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He [...] who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another." Moreover, "their names represent [...] what they are [...] called; and the distinction indicated by the names does not [...] admit [...] confusion, because there is none in the things which they designate."[16]

Pope Dionysius (composed 265): "Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity.... Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'."[17] Yet, Jesus is not treated as synonymous with God.
3. 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions reject it. So? 2 out of 3 Abrahamic religions also reject Jesus Christ as the only way to Heaven. Truth is not dependent on popular opinion.
True, but if the earliest one rejects it and so does the latest, it tells me that the doctrines aren't very believable.
4. The Holy Ghost is not a person, it's a spirit, whatever that is. Jesus referred the the Holy Spirit as a person:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
How could a "spirit of truth" be a person If people can drink of it? see:
John 7:37-39 New International Version (NIV)
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[a] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
or even tasted it. See:
Hebrews 6:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here are two more verses where you can apparently be filled with it Ephesians 5:18 and Acts 2:4.

It's hardly a person. Even Paul never mentions it in his letters of greetings. Peter (the Rock) never has a word of introduction to a holy ghost in the salutations of both his epistles. Jesus continually speaks of God the Father, but says nothing about the Trinity or of the Holy Ghost being his dad.

Jesus never taught about the Trinity because it was a man-made construction, just like he was.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Chapabel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:05 pm

I answered every one of your reasons for not believing the doctrine of the Trinity with proof straight from the pages of scripture. Now, I could be like one of our obnoxious posters and repost exactly what I have already posted, but what's the point of that? The evidence for the Trinity is abundant in both the OT and NT. I gave you the proof. What you do with that proof is up to you. If you choose not to believe, no amount of back and forth will convince you.

As far as citing early church fathers in the manner in which you have is very problematic. Throwing out snippets of their writing can be very misleading. In all honesty I have not read all of their writings and opinions. So I can't form an true view of their beliefs. Regardless of their opinions, they do not supersede the Bible. All three members of the Trinity are mentioned throughout the Bible. I have proven that. So your entire premise has no legitimate support.

I can't give you a completely accurate description of the Holy Spirit, because I can't fully comprehend Him. If I could explain Him, He wouldn't be God. All I know is Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as "He". That makes Him a person. That doesn't mean He has a physical body with arms, legs and a head. But He has attributes of a person such as love and hate. He lives within me. I feel Him in my very being. I have felt His chastisement, His warnings, His guidance and His love. Nope, I can't explain Him. But I know He lives in me.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:22 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:05 pm
I answered every one of your reasons for not believing the doctrine of the Trinity with proof straight from the pages of scripture. Now, I could be like one of our obnoxious posters and repost exactly what I have already posted, but what's the point of that? The evidence for the Trinity is abundant in both the OT and NT. I gave you the proof. What you do with that proof is up to you. If you choose not to believe, no amount of back and forth will convince you.
There is a lot more proof in the scriptures on Non-trinitarian websites, but the most damning is :
Deuteronomy 6:4 International Standard Version (ISV)
4 “Listen, Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.[a]

Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The Lord our God, the Lord is one
As far as citing early church fathers in the manner in which you have is very problematic. Throwing out snippets of their writing can be very misleading. In all honesty I have not read all of their writings and opinions. So I can't form an true view of their beliefs.
They were the earliest founders of your religion! They are the cornerstones and if they believed that God the father is above Jesus, who are you to say that they were wrong?
Regardless of their opinions, they do not supersede the Bible.

Why not?
All three members of the Trinity are mentioned throughout the Bible.
That's not good enough. The word "Trinity" doesn't appear in either the OT or the NT or even the Torah. It's not there because it was made up. If it were the truth, Jesus and the church fathers would have been teaching it from the get go.
I have proven that. So your entire premise has no legitimate support.
You have given your world view which is not in the least supported by any Jew. If Jesus was a real person that was alive now, being a Jew he too would disagree with you. The concept of the trinity in Christianity is shituf or even polytheistic in Judaism.
I can't give you a completely accurate description of the Holy Spirit, because I can't fully comprehend Him. If I could explain Him, He wouldn't be God. All I know is Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as "He".
Where does he say that?
That makes Him a person. That doesn't mean He has a physical body with arms, legs and a head.
Um, yes it does. A person is a human being with a physical body with arms, legs and a head. Spirits are invisible voids, much like nothing at all.
But He has attributes of a person such as love and hate. He lives within me. I feel Him in my very being. I have felt His chastisement, His warnings, His guidance and His love. Nope, I can't explain Him. But I know He lives in me.
I think that you are confusing that impregnation with your own nature.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Chapabel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:05 pm

SEG wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:22 pm

There is a lot more proof in the scriptures on Non-trinitarian websites, but the most damning is :
Deuteronomy 6:4 International Standard Version (ISV)
4 “Listen, Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.[a]

Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The Lord our God, the Lord is one
That's not damning at all. God is three persons in one. The same way a human is three in one. We are made up of body, soul and spirit (I Thess.5:23). I am one person, but I have three different characteristics. My body is the physical part of me. My soul is my self conscience that contains all my emotions. My spirit is my God conscience that relates to God. When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, He made it clear that Nicodemus needed a spiritual birth (John 3:5-6). That's why you cannot relate to God. You have never been spiritually born. I will not deny that the doctrine of the Trinity is impossible to fully comprehend. I just can't wrap my finite mind around such a divine concept. But again, God does not require us to understand everything about His nature, just believe it.
They were the earliest founders of your religion! They are the cornerstones and if they believed that God the father is above Jesus, who are you to say that they were wrong?
No, the founders of Christianity were the disciples and apostles. Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone. Not the early church fathers two centuries removed from Christ. The Bible writers clearly revealed the three persons of the Godhead. Again, snippets from church father's writings are problematic because it is too easy to take them out of context. Also remember, their writings are not considered inspired by God so they are not infallible. Maybe they did believe Jesus was lesser than the Father. They would be partially correct, because in His physical form, Jesus willingly submitted Himself to the authority of the Father. But Jesus also made it perfectly clear that He was equal with the Father. Paul addressed this a well: Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
That's not good enough. The word "Trinity" doesn't appear in either the OT or the NT or even the Torah. It's not there because it was made up. If it were the truth, Jesus and the church fathers would have been teaching it from the get go.
You're correct. The word Trinity is not in the Bible. But that doesn't mean the concept is absent. The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught because it is not vital to salvation. Believing in Jesus is the focus of the Bible. Most Christians I know wouldn't know where to begin in explaining the doctrine of the Trinity. But they can tell you the circumstances surrounding their salvation. Understanding the Trinity is not required for salvation, so it isn't explained in detail.
Where does he say that?
Dude, I posted them already. You don't read the verses do you? Here you go:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 am

Chapabel wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:05 pm
That's not damning at all. God is three persons in one.
That's impossible, how can you be alone with 3 persons inside you? I worked out where the concept came from - it's pagan!
“The origin of the conception is entirely pagan”
Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited book:

“It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . .

“The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth …
Even another Christian church recognises this fact. Here is a very good video explanation from a young, educated Jewish guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ThWd1HgnTY
That's not good enough. The word "Trinity" doesn't appear in either the OT or the NT or even the Torah. It's not there because it was made up. If it were the truth, Jesus and the church fathers would have been teaching it from the get go.
You're correct. The word Trinity is not in the Bible. But that doesn't mean the concept is absent. The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught because it is not vital to salvation. Believing in Jesus is the focus of the Bible. Most Christians I know wouldn't know where to begin in explaining the doctrine of the Trinity. But they can tell you the circumstances surrounding their salvation. Understanding the Trinity is not required for salvation, so it isn't explained in detail. [/quote]
I find it astounding that if you believe that Jesus was historical, that he didn't teach this core belief. Then it took another 300 years to fully develop it.
Where does he say that?
Dude, I posted them already. You don't read the verses do you? Here you go:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Persons are human, spirits don't have genders and aren't anything really.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Chapabel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 am
I find it astounding that if you believe that Jesus was historical, that he didn't teach this core belief. Then it took another 300 years to fully develop it.
Understanding the doctrine of the Trinity is not key to salvation. Believing in the finished work of Christ is the essential element in salvation. Demonology is not explained in detail in scripture either, but demons are active during Christ's earthly ministry. Just because He did not address the topic does not mean it was not an issue. However, the Trinity was a principle Jesus believed in because we can see it in His command for baptizing believers: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Chapabel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:37 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 am

That's impossible, how can you be alone with 3 persons inside you? I worked out where the concept came from - it's pagan!
“The origin of the conception is entirely pagan”

Even another Christian church recognises this fact. Here is a very good video explanation from a young, educated Jewish guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ThWd1HgnTY
The concept is not pagan. The concept was recognized by the earliest people and adapted into their cultures. Christianity did not steal the concept form other religions. Other religions perverted the truth of a Triune God into their false narratives. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit existed before any recognized religion was formed. As far as your nice young educated Jewish guy goes, everyone is entitled to be wrong, even him.

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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:55 pm

Chapabel wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:37 pm
The concept is not pagan.
There is abundant proof that the concept IS pagan. Where is your proof that the Christian concept came first?
The concept was recognized by the earliest people and adapted into their cultures.
Recognised from where?
Christianity did not steal the concept form other religions. Other religions perverted the truth of a Triune God into their false narratives.
How could they know this if their religions were thousands of years before Christianity?
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit existed before any recognized religion was formed.
Yahweh was only mentioned at the very end of the Late Bronze Age, before that they worshipped other Canaanite gods. Pagan gods go back thousands of years earlier than this.
As far as your nice young educated Jewish guy goes, everyone is entitled to be wrong, even him.
Have you considered that you may be wrong too?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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