Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

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SEG
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:11 pm
Because the historicity of Jesus was not at issue.
Well, it should have been. If it was well known that he walked the Earth as a human living in Nazareth, it would have been dead easy to refute that he didn't instead of quibbling about whether he was the son of God, equal to God or subordinate. They seem to be writing about him like any other mythical god like Zeus instead of an actual man that made the recent history books.
How could he be an equal with God if he was a real living man?
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:11 pm
The argument was never about the human nature, although that is an issue in later controversies and had been an issue in the earlier controversy over docetism. The Athanasian creed explains this by saying he was 'Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood.'
If he were really God, he would have to have sex with his own mother!
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:11 pm
I think you understand that this is not what Christians believe. Given some of your recent misunderstandings I am not sure you understand this but I think you do. One of the main tests of understanding is that you can explain the views of those you disagree with. So far there is not much to indicate understanding on your part. Could you explain what Christians do believe and why they do not believe this?
I've got no idea what all Christians believe about the so called "virgin birth". If I were to hazard a guess, I would think that most would believe that the Church has made a decree and they must pretend to believe it to be considered a "true Christian. I don't think anyone today would believe that a holy ghost disguised as a dove sprayed holy sperm onto a 13 year old girl to conceive the son of the Creator of The Universe which is really himself in three parts, yet one.
Holy Spray.jpg
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Origen and Eusebeus are not by any stretch of the imagination the most important of the Church Fathers. This article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers does not even mention Eusebius and adds a note that Origen's status as a father is disputed. If you get a full list of the Fathers it will include just about any Christian who wrote in that era and Eusebius will be on it. I mean you pasted an article arguing that he is more significant than he is usually thought to be; that should tell you he is not usually regarded as very important. Origen is much more influential but a lot of his views were not adopted and now seem strange to most Christians.
It may be a Catholic thing. See http://chrysologus.blogspot.com/2011/06 ... gical.html
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:21 pm
A lot of people, especially some Christians, regard Judaism as Christianity without the New Testament. In fact the Jewish faith developed a great deal after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Many forms of Judaism did not survive and rabbinic Judaism develops from one type that did (Phariseeism). It does hold the Hebrew Scriptures as a primary authority but also has the Mishnah and Talmud which developed after the emergence of Christianity as key texts. These tell people how the earlier writings should be read and they develop in conflict with and contrast to Christianity. They show one way the Hebrew Scriptures can be read. Christianity which emerged a little earlier shows another way.
Yes, it seems to me that Christianity is just another branch of Judaism.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:21 pm
Athanasius is a very significant figure. Ultimately he is far more influential than Origen or Eusebius.
Now that's a leap!
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:21 pm
It is not really controversial. The article you pasted says hi s views became official doctrine. Origen's views are now largely abandoned and forgotten. There is no doubt about which were the most influential. If you don't believe me approach any Christian who does not know much Church history and describe some of Origen's views, for example explain what Origen believed about the pre-existence of the soul, and ask what he or she thinks. Then read them Chapter 17 of On the Incarnation and ask the same question.
I might ask my new brother-in-law, he is an educated Christian, though he doesn't bother with church. I'll let you know what his answer is when I see him.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm

SEG wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 am
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:11 pm
Because the historicity of Jesus was not at issue.
Well, it should have been. If it was well known that he walked the Earth as a human living in Nazareth, it would have been dead easy to refute that he didn't instead of quibbling about whether he was the son of God, equal to God or subordinate.
As L P Hartley said 'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there'. You may wish that people in the past had shared your concerns and approached things in the way you would have liked them to but they didn't.
They seem to be writing about him like any other mythical god like Zeus instead of an actual man that made the recent history books.
Actually the pagans did not approach their gods in this way; did not try to develop a metaphysics or a theology around their gods. Sometimes they try to fit the gods into their metaphysic as when Democritus says the gods must be made of atoms like everything else.
I've got no idea what all Christians believe about the so called "virgin birth". If I were to hazard a guess, I would think that most would believe that the Church has made a decree and they must pretend to believe it to be considered a "true Christian. I don't think anyone today would believe that a holy ghost disguised as a dove sprayed holy sperm onto a 13 year old girl to conceive the son of the Creator of The Universe which is really himself in three parts, yet one.
I think you are right no one today believes that but then no one at any time in the past believed it either as far as I am aware. Unless you can give any example of Christians believing that there does not seem much point discussing it.
I think what hapened is that for hundreds of years Christians, both Catholic and other, were using the words 'Church Fathers' in a particular way and then around a century or so ago scholars started using the word in a different way.
Yes, it seems to me that Christianity is just another branch of Judaism.
Jews of course would not agree. The main reason for this is that all forms of Judaism, unlike Christianity, are based around an orthopraxy not an orthodoxy and Christianity stands outside that orthopraxy. However most Jews would exclude Messianic Judaism from being a form of Judaism even if it does try to include the Jewish Orthopraxy.
I might ask my new brother-in-law, he is an educated Christian, though he doesn't bother with church. I'll let you know what his answer is when I see him.
It will be interesting to see how he answers because since the nineteenth century not all modern Protestants would accept the historic teaching on this point. I chose that chapter because it is one where Athanasius is clearly going beyond what is directly taught in scripture.

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SEG
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:22 am

SEG wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 am
They seem to be writing about him like any other mythical god like Zeus instead of an actual man that made the recent history books.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm
Actually the pagans did not approach their gods in this way; did not try to develop a metaphysics or a theology around their gods. Sometimes they try to fit the gods into their metaphysic as when Democritus says the gods must be made of atoms like everything else.
It would be easy to dismiss a claim of a being existing forever if it was a well known historical person like Julius Caesar or George Washington, even if there was no converging and overlapping routes of documentary evidence. Word gets around pretty quickly if you are an enormously popular person, even a couple of hundred years after your death. Jesus strangely didn't warrant much notice or get remembered for what he supposedly did on Earth.
I've got no idea what all Christians believe about the so called "virgin birth". If I were to hazard a guess, I would think that most would believe that the Church has made a decree and they must pretend to believe it to be considered a "true Christian. I don't think anyone today would believe that a holy ghost disguised as a dove sprayed holy sperm onto a 13 year old girl to conceive the son of the Creator of The Universe which is really himself in three parts, yet one.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm
I think you are right no one today believes that but then no one at any time in the past believed it either as far as I am aware. Unless you can give any example of Christians believing that there does not seem much point discussing it.
Lol! I love it when you generously offer a concession, then detonate it! I can provide lots of Christian depictions of the Holy Ghost being depicted as a dove spraying Mary with God knows what. Maybe you know what was transcending the physical world without the need for any sperm, DNA or chromosomes?
SEG wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 am
It may be a Catholic thing. See http://chrysologus.blogspot.com/2011/06 ... gical.html
Yes, it seems to me that Christianity is just another branch of Judaism.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm
Jews of course would not agree. The main reason for this is that all forms of Judaism, unlike Christianity, are based around an orthopraxy not an orthodoxy and Christianity stands outside that orthopraxy. However most Jews would exclude Messianic Judaism from being a form of Judaism even if it does try to include the Jewish Orthopraxy.
Fair enough.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm
It will be interesting to see how he answers because since the nineteenth century not all modern Protestants would accept the historic teaching on this point. I chose that chapter because it is one where Athanasius is clearly going beyond what is directly taught in scripture.
Ok. I won't see him for a while because he is in Canberra and doesn't do emails. He bought me a quarterly subscription for my 60th and I am reading Richard Denniss' DEAD RIGHT
How neoliberalism ate itself and what comes next
Have you heard of him?
I might ask my new brother-in-law, he is an educated Christian, though he doesn't bother with church. I'll let you know what his answer is when I see him.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by SEG » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:12 am

Sorry, that last paragraph was not meant to stay.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:11 pm

SEG wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:22 am
It would be easy to dismiss a claim of a being existing forever if it was a well known historical person like Julius Caesar or George Washington, even if there was no converging and overlapping routes of documentary evidence. Word gets around pretty quickly if you are an enormously popular person, even a couple of hundred years after your death. Jesus strangely didn't warrant much notice or get remembered for what he supposedly did on Earth.
No. Quite apart from obvious counter examples like Hailie Selassie who is both well documented and widely believed to be divine you are making the mistake of projecting the attitudes of a minority of moderns onto all people everywhere.
Lol! I love it when you generously offer a concession, then detonate it! I can provide lots of Christian depictions of the Holy Ghost being depicted as a dove spraying Mary with God knows what. Maybe you know what was transcending the physical world without the need for any sperm, DNA or chromosomes?
1. Christian iconography works through a series of visual symbols which you need to understand in order to grasp what is depicted; nothing is being sprayed, you are being over literal in your interpretation.2. The virginal conception is seen by Christians as a creative act by God not a sexual one.
Ok. I won't see him for a while because he is in Canberra and doesn't do emails. He bought me a quarterly subscription for my 60th and I am reading Richard Denniss' DEAD RIGHT
How neoliberalism ate itself and what comes next
Have you heard of him?
I might ask my new brother-in-law, he is an educated Christian, though he doesn't bother with church. I'll let you know what his answer is when I see him.
No, but I guess I would agree with him. Ann Pettifor predicted the crash of 2008. That's harder than reacting to it so she is an economist worth a listen.

Rian
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Rian » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:22 pm

(totally OT, but gotta say Moon, I just love your new avvy!!!!! It's so much cuter than the one you had on the old forum.)


edit - I tried to upload my old avvy but it's just a little too big and I can't remember which program I used to make it smaller - do you guys know how to do that? It's about 6100 bytes and it has to be 6000 or less.

Claire
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Claire » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:42 am


Rian
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Re: Why The Trinity is a False Doctrine

Post by Rian » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:40 am

Thank you, I"ll check it out.

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