Mary, Mother of God

Create a topic and discuss! No subject is off limits, but moderators have the right to remove asshat posts. What's an asshat post? Selling stuff, trolling, harassing--the usual stuff you don't want to see either. Happy posting!
Claire
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:39 pm

Another forum member argues;
Chapabel wrote:Adam is credited with passing sin onto all people even though Eve was the first person to sin:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The only logical conclusion is that our sin nature is passed on to us through our fathers.
But, that is not the only logical conclusion, (i) because that passage does not explicitly say "Adam", and (ii) the word "man" does not always refer to the male sex when used. It's also about the same as the modern day word “person”, and can refer to the human race, as well as gender neutral.

And, Eve was the one who committed offense against God first, which means sin entered the world because of her not Adam. But, that does not also mean the inheritance of original sin, and it's consequences, only comes from women. To say that would be to ignore the offense Adam committed, and make his involvement meaningless.

All human beings, with the exception of those Graced by the intervention of God, inherit the stain of original sin, and its consequences, because of Adam and Eve for they both committed an offense against God.

So, for reasons explained above, it's illogical to argue Romans 5:12 means Adam is responsible for bringing sin into the world, and is the sole reason for why human beings are subjected to inheriting the stain of original sin, and its consequences.
Chapabel wrote:Nothing in the Bible teaches Mary was sinless.
Chapabel wrote:The only way Mary could have been born sinless would require God to be her Father as well.
God is Mary's Father, Her spiritual one, and the most important. And, there are verses in the Bible that point to Mary being without sin, and a perpetual virgin;

Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Christ's virgin birth -- see also Matt 1:23 & Luke 1:27-- and the term "virgin" does not only refer to an individual who abstains from sexual intercourse. It can also be used to describe someone who is ''inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity" and "an absolutely chaste young woman". One of the definitions of "chaste" is "pure in thought and act".

In Luke 1:28 Gabriel recognized Mary as being full of Grace. Grace gives light and knowledge to the soul. But, original sin, and the mortal one, removes Grace. So, if Mary had original sin, and committed personal sins, then She couldn't have been full of God's Grace at the same time.

As for Mary's perpetual virginity, in Luke 1:31 it's after Mary is espoused to Joseph that Gabriel tells Her She will conceive a child, and She asks, "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" That question doesn't make sense unless She had taken a vow of virginity. Also, notice Her response wasn't "How shall this be done, because I have not yet known man".

To conclude, I suggest reading Exodus 25. God gave Moses detailed instruction in regards to the creation of the Ark that was to carry His written word. How much more care and attention would He give to Mary, the Ark who would carry His Son, the Savior of world, and His Word made flesh?

I would argue these passages alone point to God having preserved Mary's soul from original sin, and Her being a perpetual virgin in thought/act. And, She maintained that immaculate state by Her natural, good faithful will.

Food for thought.
Last edited by Claire on Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:07 am

I think the RCC is really reaching here (and reeeeeely reaching on the whole ark thing - Mary already has enough honor without the whole sinless idea), and if we are saved by Christ alone, then the whole Mary issue isn't even important enough to make a stand on. I think at the most, it should be a kind of "hey this is kind of academic, but we think Mary was sinless for these reasons, but it really doesn't matter and we could be wrong on it - Christ is what really matters". I think their strong position on Mary takes away from the wonderful work of Christ on our behalf and how he is our only Savior.

Claire
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:47 am

.
Last edited by Claire on Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:10 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:39 pm

To conclude, I suggest reading Exodus 25. God gave Moses detailed instruction in regards to the creation of the Ark that was to carry His written word. How much more care and attention would He give to Mary, the Ark who would carry His Son, the Savior of world, and His Word made flesh?

Food for thought.
How much more care and attention would he give to Mary? He gave her little care and attention. He showed no love towards his earthly father and mother in the Bible, he only had love for himself and his alto ego God. In fact according to the law of the 10 commandments, "Honour thy father and thy mother" - he should have been stoned!
See:
John 2:1–25
The Wedding at Cana
2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with jhis disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me?
Luke 11:27–28
27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Matthew 12:46-50 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Disrespectful Children https://www.openbible.info/topics/disre ... l_children
Colossians 3:20 ESV / 356 helpful votes
Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

Leviticus 20:9 ESV / 356 helpful votes
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV / 323 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Proverbs 30:17 ESV / 254 helpful votes
The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures.

Exodus 21:15 ESV / 247 helpful votes
“Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Ephesians 6:1 ESV / 231 helpful votes
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Matthew 15:4 ESV / 225 helpful votes
For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’

Proverbs 13:24 ESV / 217 helpful votes
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Exodus 21:17 ESV / 146 helpful votes
“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Mark 7:9-10 ESV / 139 helpful votes
And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’

Proverbs 20:20 ESV / 127 helpful votes
If one curses his father or his mother, his lamp will be put out in utter darkness.

Hebrews 10:26 ESV / 109 helpful votes
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Exodus 20:12 ESV / 101 helpful votes
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

1 John 2:1-29 ESV / 95 helpful votes
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: ...

Romans 13:1 ESV / 85 helpful votes
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 ESV / 84 helpful votes
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

John 14:1 ESV / 73 helpful votes
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.

1 John 4:4 ESV / 60 helpful votes
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Deuteronomy 21:18 ESV / 60 helpful votes
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,

Romans 8:26 ESV / 59 helpful votes
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Matthew 15:6 ESV / 45 helpful votes
He need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Ephesians 6:1-4 ESV / 41 helpful votes
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

John 3:17 ESV / 41 helpful votes
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Philippians 2:3 ESV / 38 helpful votes
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

John 15:6 ESV / 38 helpful votes
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

John 14:6 ESV / 35 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:1-31 ESV / 35 helpful votes
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ...

1 Peter 2:17 ESV / 32 helpful votes
Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Ephesians 6:1-3 ESV / 32 helpful votes
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”

Isaiah 3:5 ESV / 30 helpful votes
And the people will oppress one another, every one his fellow and every one his neighbor; the youth will be insolent to the elder, and the despised to the honorable.

Leviticus 19:32 ESV / 30 helpful votes
“You shall stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord.

Romans 12:10 ESV / 28 helpful votes
Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

Deuteronomy 22:9 ESV / 27 helpful votes
“You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, lest the whole yield be forfeited, the crop that you have sown and the yield of the vineyard.

Ephesians 6:2 ESV / 26 helpful votes
“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise),

Colossians 3:21 ESV / 25 helpful votes
Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

Romans 13:7 ESV / 23 helpful votes
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 23 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Psalm 119:1-76 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! ...

Ephesians 5:33 ESV / 19 helpful votes
However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Proverbs 23:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Listen to your father who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old.

Genesis 4:1-10 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.” And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. ...

James 1:27 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Matthew 7:12 ESV / 18 helpful votes
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Isaiah 42:1-25 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law. Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it: ...

Hebrews 13:17 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Timothy 4:12 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

Proverbs 28:24 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Whoever robs his father or his mother and says, “That is no transgression,” is a companion to a man who destroys.

Proverbs 1:17 ESV / 17 helpful votes
For in vain is a net spread in the sight of any bird,

Psalm 119:9 ESV / 17 helpful votes
How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.

1 John 3:23 ESV / 16 helpful votes
And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

James 1:5 ESV / 16 helpful votes
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 ESV / 16 helpful votes
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

Acts 17:10-11 ESV / 16 helpful votes
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

John 14:15 ESV / 16 helpful votes
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 6:33 ESV / 16 helpful votes
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

2 Kings 2:23-24 ESV / 16 helpful votes
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

2 Kings 2:23-25 ESV / 16 helpful votes
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. From there he went on to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

1 Peter 5:5 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 ESV / 15 helpful votes
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Proverbs 10:1 ESV / 15 helpful votes
The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish son is a sorrow to his mother.

Deuteronomy 5:16 ESV / 15 helpful votes
“‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

Revelation 4:11 ESV / 14 helpful votes
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

James 1:19 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;

Ephesians 6:5-9 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

John 14:1-3 ESV / 14 helpful votes
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

John 3:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Matthew 19:13-14 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

1 Timothy 6:1-2 ESV / 13 helpful votes
Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

Romans 13:2 ESV / 13 helpful votes
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Isaiah 54:6-17 ESV / 13 helpful votes
For the Lord has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God. For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer. “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you. For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,” says the Lord, who has compassion on you. ...

Genesis 1:27 ESV / 13 helpful votes
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

1 John 1:9 ESV / 12 helpful votes
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 ESV / 12 helpful votes
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

2 Corinthians 13:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 7:19 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”

Proverbs 31:1-31 ESV / 12 helpful votes
The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him: What are you doing, my son? What are you doing, son of my womb? What are you doing, son of my vows? Do not give your strength to women, your ways to those who destroy kings. It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. ...

Hebrews 12:9 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

Isaiah 3:1-26 ESV / 11 helpful votes
For behold, the Lord God of hosts is taking away from Jerusalem and from Judah support and supply, all support of bread, and all support of water; the mighty man and the soldier, the judge and the prophet, the diviner and the elder, the captain of fifty and the man of rank, the counselor and the skillful magician and the expert in charms. And I will make boys their princes, and infants shall rule over them. And the people will oppress one another, every one his fellow and every one his neighbor; the youth will be insolent to the elder, and the despised to the honorable. ...

Proverbs 1:8-9 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Hear, my son, your father's instruction, and forsake not your mother's teaching, for they are a graceful garland for your head and pendants for your neck.

Philippians 4:13 ESV / 10 helpful votes
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

1 Corinthians 10:33 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Revelation 1:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

1 Timothy 5:4 ESV / 9 helpful votes
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God.

1 Timothy 3:2 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Romans 8:28 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Luke 20:25 ESV / 9 helpful votes
He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Proverbs 22:6 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

Psalm 83:18 ESV / 9 helpful votes
That they may know that you alone, whose name is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.

Revelation 2:1-29 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. ...

James 3:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.

Romans 13:1-7 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

2 Kings 2:23 ESV / 8 helpful votes
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”

1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 7 helpful votes
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Proverbs 15:20 ESV / 7 helpful votes
A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish man despises his mother.

James 1:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes
For you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

Romans 13:8 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Proverbs 6:20 ESV / 6 helpful votes
My son, keep your father's commandment, and forsake not your mother's teaching.

Hebrews 12:25 ESV / 5 helpful votes
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

Ephesians 6:1-2 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise),
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:43 am

SEG wrote:How much more care and attention would He give to Mary? He gave her little care and attention. He showed no love towards his earthly father and mother in the Bible, he only had love for himself and his alto ego God. In fact according to the law of the 10 commandments, "Honour thy father and thy mother" - he should have been stoned!

John 2:1–25
The Wedding at Cana
2 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with jhis disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me?

Luke 11:27–28
27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Matthew 12:46-50
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
At the wedding in Cana, Jesus was basically asking Mary "Why are you coming to me with this when it's not my time to reveal Himself yet?". But, in the end, He obeyed His mother, and made more wine for the guests.

In regards to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus agreed with the woman, then added to the conversation saying that also blessed are those who do the will of God and keep it.

As for Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus didn't deny Mary as His biological Mother, and James, Judas and their older brothers as His cousins, just because He said He has many more brothers, sisters, and Mothers in Christ.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:24 am

Claire wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:43 am

At the wedding in Cana, Jesus was basically asking Mary "Why are you coming to me with this when it's not my time to reveal Himself yet?". But, in the end, He obeyed His mother, and made more wine for the guests.

In regards to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus agreed with the woman, then added to the conversation saying that also blessed are those who do the will of God and keep it.

As for Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus didn't deny Mary as His biological Mother, and James, Judas and their older brothers as His cousins, just because He said He has many more brothers, sisters, and Mothers in Christ.
It sounded like he was being rude to his mother in all three accounts. Do you know of any verses where he was loving towards his own parents or treated them with respect? I can't.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:32 pm

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:At the wedding in Cana, Jesus was basically asking Mary "Why are you coming to me with this when it's not my time to reveal Himself yet?". But, in the end, He obeyed His mother, and made more wine for the guests.

In regards to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus agreed with the woman, then added to the conversation saying that also blessed are those who do the will of God and keep it.

As for Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus didn't deny Mary as His biological Mother, and James, Judas and their older brothers as His cousins, just because He said He has many more brothers, sisters, and Mothers in Christ.
It sounded like he was being rude to his mother in all three accounts.
Not at all. And, the woman in Luke 11:27–28 wasn't even Mary Jesus was talking to.
SEG wrote:Do you know of any verses where he was loving towards his own parents or treated them with respect? I can't.
Here's an example;

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own". (John 19:26-27)

One of the meanings behind this passage was Jesus wanted to make sure Mary was going to be taken care of out His love for Her.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:54 pm

SEG wrote:Do you know of any verses where he was loving towards his own parents or treated them with respect? I can't.
Claire wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:32 pm
Here's an example;

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own". (John 19:26-27)

One of the meanings behind this passage was Jesus wanted to make sure Mary was going to be taken care of out His love for Her.
You are proving my point. He never calls Mary "mother" in any of the gospels, it's always the sneering "woman". Most people in real life call their biological mother "mother" and show their love for their parents and family members. Jesus had nothing but scorn for his parents, love wasn't on his agenda except for his disciples and heavenly father (himself). This shows that this is fiction and the stories of the Bible are just allegorical dogma.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:23 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:At the wedding in Cana, Jesus was basically asking Mary "Why are you coming to me with this when it's not my time to reveal Himself yet?". But, in the end, He obeyed His mother, and made more wine for the guests.

In regards to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus agreed with the woman, then added to the conversation saying that also blessed are those who do the will of God and keep it.

As for Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus didn't deny Mary as His biological Mother, and James, Judas and their older brothers as His cousins, just because He said He has many more brothers, sisters, and Mothers in Christ.
It sounded like he was being rude to his mother in all three accounts.
Not at all. And, the woman in Luke 11:27–28 wasn't even Mary Jesus was talking to.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you know of any verses where he was loving towards his own parents or treated them with respect? I can't.
Here's an example;

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own". (John 19:26-27)

One of the meanings behind this passage was Jesus wanted to make sure Mary was going to be taken care of out His love for Her.
You are proving my point. He never calls Mary "mother" in any of the gospels, it's always the sneering "woman". Most people in real life call their biological mother "mother" and show their love for their parents and family members. Jesus had nothing but scorn for his parents, love wasn't on his agenda except for his disciples and heavenly father (himself). This shows that this is fiction and the stories of the Bible are just allegorical dogma.
I'm not proving your point. You have to read scripture bearing in mind the context and time in history, but you're not doing that, and instead reading the tone you want into the texts. Thousands of years ago the term "woman" was used much like how we use the word "ma'am" today. It's more formal and formal terms don't automatically mean scornful.
Last edited by Claire on Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:36 am

Claire wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:23 am
I'm not proving your point. You have read to scripture bearing in mind the context and time in history, but you're not doing that, and instead reading the tone you want into the texts. Thousands of years ago the term "woman" was used much like how we use the word "ma'am" today. It's more formal and formal terms don't automatically mean scornful.
You still haven't shown me where he refers to his parents in a loving, respectful way. That's because your Jesus didn't have a loving bone in his body about them, only for himself and his disciples. Jesus clearly had no love for his family. Jesus = Love

should be Jesus = scorn
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Post Reply