Mary, Mother of God

Create a topic and discuss! No subject is off limits, but moderators have the right to remove asshat posts. What's an asshat post? Selling stuff, trolling, harassing--the usual stuff you don't want to see either. Happy posting!
Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:44 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:At the wedding in Cana, Jesus was basically asking Mary "Why are you coming to me with this when it's not my time to reveal Himself yet?". But, in the end, He obeyed His mother, and made more wine for the guests.

In regards to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus agreed with the woman, then added to the conversation saying that also blessed are those who do the will of God and keep it.

As for Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus didn't deny Mary as His biological Mother, and James, Judas and their older brothers as His cousins, just because He said He has many more brothers, sisters, and Mothers in Christ.
It sounded like he was being rude to his mother in all three accounts.
Not at all. And, the woman in Luke 11:27–28 wasn't even Mary Jesus was talking to.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you know of any verses where he was loving towards his own parents or treated them with respect? I can't.
Here's an example;

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own". (John 19:26-27)

One of the meanings behind this passage was Jesus wanted to make sure Mary was going to be taken care of out His love for Her.
You are proving my point. He never calls Mary "mother" in any of the gospels, it's always the sneering "woman". Most people in real life call their biological mother "mother" and show their love for their parents and family members. Jesus had nothing but scorn for his parents, love wasn't on his agenda except for his disciples and heavenly father (himself). This shows that this is fiction and the stories of the Bible are just allegorical dogma.
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:I'm not proving your point. You have read to scripture bearing in mind the context and time in history, but you're not doing that, and instead reading the tone you want into the texts. Thousands of years ago the term "woman" was used much like how we use the word "ma'am" today. It's more formal and formal terms don't automatically mean scornful.
You still haven't shown me where he refers to his parents in a loving, respectful way. That's because your Jesus didn't have a loving bone in his body about them, only for himself and his disciples. Jesus clearly had no love for his family. Jesus = Love

should be Jesus = scorn
I gave you an example of a loving/respectful moment. But, you're ignoring the context and language usage thousands of years ago, and reading into the text the tone you want to fit your bias.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 1863
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Claire wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:44 am
I gave you an example of a loving/respectful moment. But, you're ignoring the context and language usage thousands of years ago, and reading into the text the tone you want to fit your bias.
That wasn't Jesus talking lovingly to his mother or father! Show me any figure in history that never calls his mother by her name or mom, mother etc and instead, insultingly calls her "woman". His parents are't respected by him at all and are only stooges. He never asks them for advice, compliments them or has any natural conversations. It's like he is a robot, devoid of any love. He never has any love interests, no close friends, and his own sisters don't have any names or even numbers attached to them. Some family guy, huh?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:58 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:I gave you an example of a loving/respectful moment. But, you're ignoring the context and language usage thousands of years ago, and reading into the text the tone you want to fit your bias.
That wasn't Jesus talking lovingly to his mother or father! Show me any figure in history that never calls his mother by her name or mom, mother etc and instead, insultingly calls her "woman". His parents are't respected by him at all and are only stooges. He never asks them for advice, compliments them or has any natural conversations. It's like he is a robot, devoid of any love. He never has any love interests, no close friends, and his own sisters don't have any names or even numbers attached to them. Some family guy, huh?
So, according to you, every time a person uses the term "woman" it's said with scorn. Well, most people are aware that is not the case, and I've given another example of how the term "woman" can be used.

And, the Bible does not contain day to day loving conversations between Jesus and His parents, and that's because that type of conversation isn't normally documented, and when it is there is a specific reason for it. But, there happens to be other Christian sources, for example Poem of the Man-God, etc, where I can list quite a few names of His sister disciples, and quote loving conversations between Jesus and His parents from it.

Anyway, can you find Cicero telling his parents he loves them? Or Homer? Or Cleopatra? How about Socrates, who Plato knew and wrote quite a lot about, including conversations. Did you catch how he treated his mother in that? Or, any accounts from that long ago, written about another historical figure, in a way that isn't meant to show anything about their conversational style, or attitudes towards parents, and still see how many show warmth towards their parents?

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 1863
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:00 am

Claire wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:58 am
Anyway, can you find Cicero telling his parents he loves them? Or Homer? Or Cleopatra? How about Socrates, who Plato knew and wrote quite a lot about, including conversations. Did you catch how he treated his mother in that? Or, any accounts from that long ago, written about another historical figure, in a way that isn't meant to show anything about their conversational style, or attitudes towards parents, and still see how many show warmth towards their parents?
Your problem is that Cicero, Homer, Cleopatra and Socrates didn't have stories written about their interactions with their families and Jesus did. No-one says Cicero, Homer, Cleopatra or Socrates loves you or they are all about love. Where is your evidence that woman equalled ma'am at that time?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:13 pm

SEG wrote:Where is your evidence that woman equalled ma'am at that time?
For explanations on how the term "woman" was used in the Bible go here.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:That wasn't Jesus talking lovingly to his mother or father! Show me any figure in history that never calls his mother by her name or mom, mother etc and instead, insultingly calls her "woman". His parents are't respected by him at all and are only stooges. He never asks them for advice, compliments them or has any natural conversations. It's like he is a robot, devoid of any love. He never has any love interests, no close friends, and his own sisters don't have any names or even numbers attached to them. Some family guy, huh?
Anyway, can you find Cicero telling his parents he loves them? Or Homer? Or Cleopatra? How about Socrates, who Plato knew and wrote quite a lot about, including conversations. Did you catch how he treated his mother in that? Or, any accounts from that long ago, written about another historical figure, in a way that isn't meant to show anything about their conversational style, or attitudes towards parents, and still see how many show warmth towards their parents?
Your problem is that Cicero, Homer, Cleopatra and Socrates didn't have stories written about their interactions with their families and Jesus did.
You've been whining about how the Bible doesn't have day to day loving conversation between Jesus and His parents where He asks for advice, compliments, etc. Then, I asked if you can find day to day loving conversations between Cicero, Homer, Cleopatra, or Socrates and their parents where they ask them for advice, compliment, etc. By your response I can see your answer is "no".

And, with any brief conversation recorded between Jesus and His Mother that is in the Bible you're reading the tone you want into the text. What evidence do you have to support your claim that every time Jesus called His Mother "woman" it was said with a negative connotation?

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 1863
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:30 am

Claire wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:13 pm
What evidence do you have to support your claim that every time Jesus called His Mother "woman" it was said with a negative connotation?
As I said previously, "Show me any figure in history that never calls his mother by her name or mom, mother etc and instead, insultingly calls her "woman".
In Koine Greek the correct term is μητέρα or mitéra. I have never heard or seen written "woman" being used directly to a person's mother except in anger or insult. It is highly disrespectful in any language or era.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:47 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:What evidence do you have to support your claim that every time Jesus called His Mother "woman" it was said with a negative connotation?
I have never heard or seen written "woman" being used directly to a person's mother except in anger or insult.
What you're saying is because you have only ever heard and seen the term "woman" have a negative connotation that means that's the only connotation that can be applied, and therefore proves every time Jesus said that term it was to be insulting. Well, I have never heard or seen the term "woman" used with a negative connotation, so that proves every time Jesus said that term it wasn't to be insulting! See what I did there?

For explanations on how the term "woman" was used in the Bible go here.

Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:08 am

Claire wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Nothing in the Bible teaches Mary was sinless.
Chapabel wrote:The only way Mary could have been born sinless would require God to be her Father as well.
God is Mary's Father, Her spiritual one, and the most important. And, there are verses in the Bible that point to Mary being without sin;

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel". (Isaiah 7:14)

The following passage is from the Douay–Rheims translation. Luke 1:28 uses the Greek word (κεχαριτωμενη) "kecharitōmenē" which Saint Jerome translated into Latin as "Gratia Plena". The correct English translation of the Greek and Latin is "full of grace"; "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women". (Luke 1:28)

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name". (Luke 1:48-49)

"And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". (Luke 1:46-47)

In Isaiah 7:14 we read Mary is called a "virgin", but that term does not only refer to an individual who has refrained from sexual intercourse. It also means "an absolutely chaste young woman", and one of the definitions of "chaste" is "pure in thought and act". Another definition for "virgin" is "a person who is inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity". Therefore, I would argue that Isaiah 7:14 refers to Mary not only being sexually inactive, but also a person who was pure in thought/action i.e. without sin.

In regards to Luke 1:28, Grace gives light and knowledge to the soul. Original sin and the mortal one removes Grace. If Mary had original sin, and committed personal sins, then She couldn't have been full of God's Grace at the same time.

As for Luke 1:46-49, Mary clearly states God did great things to her, and a couple of those was making Her the Mother of God, as well as preserving Her from the stain of original sin, and its consequences, before her conception, etc. Not because She did anything to deserve it, rather He wanted it so, knowing She was to be The Mother of God. Due to Her immaculate soul, and natural good faithful will, She did not even commit personal sins throughout Her life. She had to be such a way so as to carry/raise The Son of God who's perfect. So, She was redeemed by the Graces of God, but in a special way -- by anticipation.

To conclude, I suggest reading Exodus 25. God gave Moses detailed instruction in regards to the creation of the Ark that was to carry His written word. How much more care and attention would He give to Mary, the Ark who would carry His Son, the Savior of world, and His Word made flesh?

Food for thought.
Rian wrote:I think the RCC is really reaching here (and reeeeeely reaching on the whole ark thing - Mary already has enough honor without the whole sinless idea), and if we are saved by Christ alone, then the whole Mary issue isn't even important enough to make a stand on. I think at the most, it should be a kind of "hey this is kind of academic, but we think Mary was sinless for these reasons, but it really doesn't matter and we could be wrong on it - Christ is what really matters". I think their strong position on Mary takes away from the wonderful work of Christ on our behalf and how he is our only Savior.
The Catholic Church teachings regarding Mary are not, nor have ever been, matters of salvation.

I referenced Bible verses that I view point to God having created Mary without the stain of original sin and explained why -- you're welcome to share your reasons for why those verses don't.

There's parallels between the ark of the covenant and Mary, and the ten commandments and Jesus. And, because there's people who don't recognize She was created without original sin, I referenced Exodus 25 where God gave Moses detailed instruction on how to create the ark that would carry His word on stone tablets, then I encouraged those to at least contemplate the question "How much more care and attention would God give to creating the one who would carry His Son, the Word of God made flesh?"

If you don't mind answering, how exactly does anything I have said about Mary take away from the work of Christ?
Last edited by Claire on Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rian
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:31 pm

Maybe it wasn't clear, I'll try to be more clear.

I said they (the RCC) were really reaching, which means IMO their interpretation is not supported very well at all. Don't need to explain further than that - it just isn't supported. It's extremely vague extrapolation.

I know it's not a matter of salvation, but they are making it about as close as you can get without actually saying she has a part in salvation, which I think is not merely unnecessary but also takes away from Christ's salvation work for us because of how much time and energy the RCC puts into Mary.

And as far as the "detailed instruction to create the ark" thing - I can buy that God might have given "much more care and attention" creating Mary, but it definitely doesn't follow that she was created without original sin.

Overall, just vague, poor arguments, IMO, that not only don't matter but actually take away from Christ.

And if you add any MV, I will definitely not respond.

Claire
Posts: 1152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:37 am

.
Last edited by Claire on Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply