Mary, Mother of God

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Humanguy
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Humanguy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:05 pm

Claire wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:17 pm
Humanguy wrote:
Claire wrote:All human beings, with the exception of those Graced by the intervention of God, inherit the stain of original sin, and its consequences, because of Adam and Eve for they both committed an offense against God.
Bullshit.

Claire, do you like this arrangement where most human beings inherit the stain of original sin and its consequences? It seems quite harsh, doesn't it, considering that a fetus will inherit the stain of original sin and its consequences.

Honestly, you have to admit that it's a very dark way to look at life, and I fail to see the point of it all. But here again, we see that Christianity hates humanity. It's where all of you, every single one of you falls down. All this original sin being bestowed upon fetuses. Your world view is depressing, there's no happiness to be found there.
The meaning of inheriting original sin is this: the tendency to sin innate in human beings, or commit immoralities in other words. A human being, at the fetus stage, has not actively sinned.
But does the fetus inherit original sin? If not, at what stage does a human inherit original sin?

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:56 am

Humanguy wrote:But does the fetus inherit original sin? If not, at what stage does a human inherit original sin?
The soul inherits the original sin of Adam and Eve when it's formed, subject to the law brought about by sin, and God infuses our soul the moment we are conceived in the womb. The original sin can be cancelled through redemption, but the soul will still have the inclination to sin, which we would not have had, had there been no original sin. This is why it's necessary to continuously watch over and care for our soul.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

Humanguy
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Humanguy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:21 am

Claire, can you visualize a world where the entire population of the planet believes as you do?

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SEG
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by SEG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:05 am

Claire wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:17 am
[You honestly think addressing a woman as "woman" is sexist?
In that context yes. If we ran out of wine at a party and my wife said, "honey the guests have run out of wine" and I said in return, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me?" I know what sort of reception I'd get. I realise that it was ancient times and women then were disrespected. Or they were classed as property. But this book is where Christians turn to in order to learn to be better people. It's sexist, get over it woman!
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:44 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:You need to look at the contest:
When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me?
He sounds like a sexist pig!
How so?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:In the normal way.
You honestly think addressing a woman as "woman" is sexist?
In that context yes. If we ran out of wine at a party and my wife said, "honey the guests have run out of wine" and I said in return, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me?" I know what sort of reception I'd get. I realise that it was ancient times and women then were disrespected. Or they were classed as property. But this book is where Christians turn to in order to learn to be better people. It's sexist, get over it woman!
It was a form of address. Not only was it a different historical context, but Jesus was speaking a different language. So, applying your modern understanding of the English word "woman" to this context doesn't work. Should any gendered form of address be considered sexist? Should we no longer say "sir" or "maam"?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:52 am

Humanguy wrote:Claire, can you visualize a world where the entire population of the planet believes as you do?
With the world as it is, I certainly don't expect that to happen. But, I can envision a world where the entire population believes as I do, just as I can envision a world where the entire population doesn't. Either way, my beliefs remain the same.

I don't understand what the purpose of your question is...

Humanguy wrote:
Claire wrote:
Humanguy wrote:Claire, do you like this arrangement where most human beings inherit the stain of original sin and its consequences? It seems quite harsh, doesn't it, considering that a fetus will inherit the stain of original sin and its consequences.

Honestly, you have to admit that it's a very dark way to look at life, and I fail to see the point of it all. But here again, we see that Christianity hates humanity. It's where all of you, every single one of you falls down. All this original sin being bestowed upon fetuses. Your world view is depressing, there's no happiness to be found
It's not a matter of liking. It just is.

While Lucifer, now satan, became the incubator of evil, evil entered the world because Eve and Adam wanted it so, thereby severing the cord which fed Grace by God. So, now there are two forces at work influencing free will: good and evil. The meaning of inheriting original sin is this: the tendency to sin innate in human beings, or commit immoralities in other words. A human being, at the fetus stage, has not actively sinned. If they live long enough, sins or immoralities if you prefer, will be committed by them if there's a will to do so.

The happiness to be found is by the Lord's willingness to endure human trials, i.e. loss, temptation, ridicule, calumny, betrayal, torture, and death, etc, He restored the bridge between man and God. Those who fall but remain faithful to love in this life, attain merit for themselves in recompense, leading to spiritual growth, and eternal life in Heaven.

I fail to see how that's a God who hates humanity.
I fail to see how acknowledging humanities lack of love is hateful.
But does the fetus inherit original sin? If not, at what stage does a human inherit original sin?
Claire wrote:The soul inherits the original sin of Adam and Eve when it's formed, subject to the law brought about by sin, and God infuses our soul the moment we are conceived in the womb. The original sin can be cancelled through redemption, but the soul will still have the inclination to sin, which we would not have had, had there been no original sin. This is why it's necessary to continuously watch over and care for our soul.
So, anything else to say or ask regarding original sin?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:04 am

I suppose not then.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

Humanguy
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Humanguy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:21 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:04 am
I suppose not then.
Dammit Claire, you have to remember that some of us live frenetic lives that don't allow us the time to fully participate in online discussion forums. I'm dealing with a lot of new musicians and we're playing a big festival gig on Saturday.

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:33 am

Thank you for the confirmation and explanation as to why.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:30 am

Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:And, there are verses in the Bible that point to Mary being without sin, and a perpetual virgin;

Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Christ's virgin birth -- see also Matthew 1:23 & Luke 1:27-- and the term "virgin" does not only refer to an individual who abstains from sexual intercourse. It can also be used to describe someone who is ''inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity" and "an absolutely chaste young woman". One of the definitions of "chaste" is "pure in thought and act".

In Luke 1:28 Gabriel recognized Mary as being full of Grace. Grace gives light and knowledge to the soul. But, original sin, and the mortal one, removes Grace. So, if Mary had original sin, and committed personal sins, then She couldn't have been full of God's Grace at the same time.

As for Mary's perpetual virginity, in Luke 1:31 it's after Mary is espoused to Joseph that Gabriel tells Her She will conceive a child, and She asks, "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" That question doesn't make sense unless She had taken a vow of virginity. Also, notice Her response wasn't "How shall this be done, because I have not yet known man".

To conclude, I suggest reading Exodus 25. God gave Moses detailed instruction in regards to the creation of the Ark that was to carry His written word. How much more care and attention would He give to Mary, the Ark who would carry His Son, the Savior of world, and His Word made flesh?

I would argue these passages alone point to God having preserved Mary's soul from original sin, and Her being a perpetual virgin in thought/act. And, She maintained that immaculate state by Her natural, good faithful will.

Food for thought.
I think the RCC is really reaching here...
Maybe it wasn't clear, I'll try to be more clear.

I said they (the RCC) were really reaching, which means IMO their interpretation is not supported very well at all. Don't need to explain further than that - it just isn't supported. It's extremely vague extrapolation.
My views on Mary are also the teachings by the Catholic Church. So, to say they're reaching, have vague, unsupported arguments, and are taking away from Christ, is to say the same about me. And, you're accusing the Catholic Church of vague, unsupported arguments while using vague, unsupported arguments yourself. Bravo.

What's your interpretation of Is. 7:14, Mt. 1:23, Lk. 1:27-28, Lk. 1:34, and Lk. 1:49? Which Bible verse(s) do you consider support the argument Mary inherited original sin?

Rian wrote:And as far as the "detailed instruction to create the ark" thing - I can buy that God might have given "much more care and attention" creating Mary, but it definitely doesn't follow that she was created without original sin.
There's parallels between the ark of the covenant and Mary, and the ten commandments and Jesus. God desired the creation of a perfect ark to carry and protect His written word. So, why would He create an imperfect ark to carry and protect His word made flesh? If Mary was not created pure, in what way(s) do you think God might've created her different from other human beings?
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:The Catholic Church teachings regarding Mary are not, nor have ever been, matters of salvation.
I know it's not a matter of salvation, but they are making it about as close as you can get without actually saying she has a part in salvation, which I think is not merely unnecessary but also takes away from Christ's salvation work for us because of how much time and energy the RCC puts into Mary.
You admit it's not a matter of salvation, yet you try to keep with the argument that it is by saying it's "as close as you can get" without being a matter of salvation. Please elaborate. And, in what way(s) has the Catholic Church taken away from Jesus's sacrifice, and how He is our only Savior, in regards to Mary?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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