How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

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Og3
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by Og3 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 am

A brief moment would be it's entire life, a few years. Compare that to the brief misery of Christ's suffering, a few measley hours.
Alright. A few years, plus infinity, divided by a few years, is .1x10^-infinity percent; and a few hours, plus 33 years, plus infinity, divided by a few hours, is .1x10^-infinity percent.

I mean, we could play Banuch-Tarski and see how many negative infinities we could create by dissecting negative infinities, but the inclusion of an infinity in the equation pretty much blows your distinction out of the water.

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SEG
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by SEG » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:55 pm

Og3 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:00 am
For reference, the "argument from incredulity" fallacy has the form,
"I cannot believe that X is true"
"Therefore it is not true."

In this case, restating your argument,
"I cannot believe that if Jesus were God in the flesh, He would not share basic hygiene information with the people around him, because He would be more compassionate than that."
"Therefore Jesus was not God in the flesh."

Argument from incredulity. And an appeal to the emotions, as well.
I've already answered this, you may have missed or ignored it:
I'm not stating that it's incredible that Jesus let millions die if he knew how to prevent deaths, so it couldn't have happened. I'm arguing that if Jesus had the knowledge (because according to you he knows everything) to prevent deaths but kept silent, he would be accountable for countless suffering and death. I'm also not appealing to the emotions to win an argument, I'm outlining his lack of compassion if that were true and also your lack of compassion for agreeing that he would be blameless.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

Rian
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by Rian » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:21 am

SEG wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:33 am
His healings were the sham of what we have today with faith healers.
Hi SEG! Boy, could we have used you here in California recently! The fires were just a few miles from my house.

Anyway, I'm not around here much, but I just saw this sentence of yours and wanted to point out that they were very different in a very important way - with the healings described in the Bible, the surrounding people KNEW the people that were healed, both before and after. With the sham faith healers, their plant acts like "just one of the crowd", and like most crowds, the surrounding people don't know them. However, with the hearings described in the Bible like the man born blind, people KNEW the man before the healing, and KNEW him after. The man had been blind from birth, and the people in the town knew this and saw it for YEARS - and then could see for themselves that after Jesus healed him, the man could see. Same thing with the lame man by the pool - people KNEW him and even helped carry him to the pool, time after time - and then after Jesus healed him, they saw with their own eyes that he was healed. That's VERY different from the sham faith healers. Do you see what I mean? I'm not asking you to believe that Jesus healed these people, or even that Jesus existed, but I do hope you can see that the two scenarios are vastly different.

Og3
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by Og3 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:04 am

Rian wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:21 am
SEG wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:33 am
His healings were the sham of what we have today with faith healers.
Hi SEG! Boy, could we have used you here in California recently! The fires were just a few miles from my house.

Anyway, I'm not around here much, but I just saw this sentence of yours and wanted to point out that they were very different in a very important way - with the healings described in the Bible, the surrounding people KNEW the people that were healed, both before and after. With the sham faith healers, their plant acts like "just one of the crowd", and like most crowds, the surrounding people don't know them. However, with the hearings described in the Bible like the man born blind, people KNEW the man before the healing, and KNEW him after. The man had been blind from birth, and the people in the town knew this and saw it for YEARS - and then could see for themselves that after Jesus healed him, the man could see. Same thing with the lame man by the pool - people KNEW him and even helped carry him to the pool, time after time - and then after Jesus healed him, they saw with their own eyes that he was healed. That's VERY different from the sham faith healers. Do you see what I mean? I'm not asking you to believe that Jesus healed these people, or even that Jesus existed, but I do hope you can see that the two scenarios are vastly different.
Excellent point.

This ties in with the discussion we were having over in "An audio record of a healing."

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SEG
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by SEG » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:14 am

Rian wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:21 am
Hi SEG! Boy, could we have used you here in California recently! The fires were just a few miles from my house.
Hi Rian, I'm glad you and your family survived those wildfires, they are terrifying! The noise alone must have scared you witless.
Anyway, I'm not around here much, but I just saw this sentence of yours and wanted to point out that they were very different in a very important way - with the healings described in the Bible, the surrounding people KNEW the people that were healed, both before and after. With the sham faith healers, their plant acts like "just one of the crowd", and like most crowds, the surrounding people don't know them. However, with the hearings described in the Bible like the man born blind, people KNEW the man before the healing, and KNEW him after. The man had been blind from birth, and the people in the town knew this and saw it for YEARS - and then could see for themselves that after Jesus healed him, the man could see. Same thing with the lame man by the pool - people KNEW him and even helped carry him to the pool, time after time - and then after Jesus healed him, they saw with their own eyes that he was healed. That's VERY different from the sham faith healers. Do you see what I mean? I'm not asking you to believe that Jesus healed these people, or even that Jesus existed, but I do hope you can see that the two scenarios are vastly different.
I didn't know about the people knowing the disabled before and after. How did you know that? Here is the passage about the lame man being healed:
A Man Healed at the Pool of Bethesda
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?”

7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”

8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.

And that day was the Sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.”

11 He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”

12 Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
I don't see these stories as being actual, I see them as parables with hidden meanings. Faith healers do annoy me as they are preying upon the weakest members of our society and taking their money and hopes. I couldn't believe it when Benny Hinn's bullshit came up on late night TV when we were over there in June.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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SEG
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by SEG » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 am

Og3 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 am
A brief moment would be it's entire life, a few years. Compare that to the brief misery of Christ's suffering, a few measley hours.
Alright. A few years, plus infinity, divided by a few years, is .1x10^-infinity percent; and a few hours, plus 33 years, plus infinity, divided by a few hours, is .1x10^-infinity percent.

I mean, we could play Banuch-Tarski and see how many negative infinities we could create by dissecting negative infinities, but the inclusion of an infinity in the equation pretty much blows your distinction out of the water.
Neat use of infinity to dodge the elephant in the room. Jesus had to die in your story, to cop the blame for our sins. Innocent babies, children and adults suffered horrible, preventable deaths because Jesus in his holy compassion couldn't be moved enough to enlighten mankind about simple hygienic practices. No magic tricks required, just commonsense advice. An ordinary preacher wouldn't be accountable for this, as he wouldn't have any more knowledge than everyone else. Jesus though (according to Christians) was a god with awesome powers, omniscience and benevolence.

Why was he silent throughout his ministry and gave contradictory advice about hygienic practices which would have been harmful to so many people for thousands of years before we worked it out ourselves through experimental science?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

Og3
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by Og3 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:35 pm

A brief moment would be it's entire life, a few years. Compare that to the brief misery of Christ's suffering, a few measley hours.
SEG wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 am
Og3 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 am
Alright. A few years, plus infinity, divided by a few years, is .1x10^-infinity percent; and a few hours, plus 33 years, plus infinity, divided by a few hours, is .1x10^-infinity percent.

I mean, we could play Banuch-Tarski and see how many negative infinities we could create by dissecting negative infinities, but the inclusion of an infinity in the equation pretty much blows your distinction out of the water.
Neat use of infinity to dodge the elephant in the room. Jesus had to die in your story, to cop the blame for our sins. Innocent babies, children and adults suffered horrible, preventable deaths because Jesus in his holy compassion couldn't be moved enough to enlighten mankind about simple hygienic practices. No magic tricks required, just commonsense advice. An ordinary preacher wouldn't be accountable for this, as he wouldn't have any more knowledge than everyone else. Jesus though (according to Christians) was a god with awesome powers, omniscience and benevolence.

Why was he silent throughout his ministry and gave contradictory advice about hygienic practices which would have been harmful to so many people for thousands of years before we worked it out ourselves through experimental science?
In light of the fact that my point was that in light of eternity, any bad thing that happens in this life is, by comparison, meaningless -- well, the infinities are not gratuitous now, are they?

But you want Jesus, whose entire point in coming to Earth was to announce God's redemption of mankind, and then to perform that redemption by self-sacrifice... You want him instead to have walked around teaching hygiene lessons. Seriously, SEG, do you hear yourself?

Around here, Firemen often do volunteer work as fundraisers for charities. What you're saying is a bit like asking them to do that full time instead of putting out and preventing fires. I mean, think how much misery could be averted if firemen spent 50-60 hours a week collecting for St. Jude's Children's hospital instead of, you know, their main mission. Honestly, it's downright cruel of them not to spend all their time fundraising for charity. They're just mean!

It's an appeal to the emotions, SEG. You're asking us to get so worked up about a sick child that we miss the fact that we're all sick, in our souls, and that sin causes more pain and more suffering in this life than any disease ever did. But we're supposed to be busy weeping instead of thinking. Come on, SEG, you know that an appeal to the emotions is not sound logic. You reason better than this when you try.

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SEG
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by SEG » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Og3 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:35 pm
A brief moment would be it's entire life, a few years. Compare that to the brief misery of Christ's suffering, a few measley hours.
SEG wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 am
Og3 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 am
Alright. A few years, plus infinity, divided by a few years, is .1x10^-infinity percent; and a few hours, plus 33 years, plus infinity, divided by a few hours, is .1x10^-infinity percent.

I mean, we could play Banuch-Tarski and see how many negative infinities we could create by dissecting negative infinities, but the inclusion of an infinity in the equation pretty much blows your distinction out of the water.
Neat use of infinity to dodge the elephant in the room. Jesus had to die in your story, to cop the blame for our sins. Innocent babies, children and adults suffered horrible, preventable deaths because Jesus in his holy compassion couldn't be moved enough to enlighten mankind about simple hygienic practices. No magic tricks required, just commonsense advice. An ordinary preacher wouldn't be accountable for this, as he wouldn't have any more knowledge than everyone else. Jesus though (according to Christians) was a god with awesome powers, omniscience and benevolence.

Why was he silent throughout his ministry and gave contradictory advice about hygienic practices which would have been harmful to so many people for thousands of years before we worked it out ourselves through experimental science?
In light of the fact that my point was that in light of eternity, any bad thing that happens in this life is, by comparison, meaningless -- well, the infinities are not gratuitous now, are they?

But you want Jesus, whose entire point in coming to Earth was to announce God's redemption of mankind, and then to perform that redemption by self-sacrifice... You want him instead to have walked around teaching hygiene lessons. Seriously, SEG, do you hear yourself?

Around here, Firemen often do volunteer work as fundraisers for charities. What you're saying is a bit like asking them to do that full time instead of putting out and preventing fires. I mean, think how much misery could be averted if firemen spent 50-60 hours a week collecting for St. Jude's Children's hospital instead of, you know, their main mission. Honestly, it's downright cruel of them not to spend all their time fundraising for charity. They're just mean!

It's an appeal to the emotions, SEG. You're asking us to get so worked up about a sick child that we miss the fact that we're all sick, in our souls, and that sin causes more pain and more suffering in this life than any disease ever did. But we're supposed to be busy weeping instead of thinking. Come on, SEG, you know that an appeal to the emotions is not sound logic. You reason better than this when you try.
That's a really poor analogy. I'm not talking about 50-60 hours a week, every week. I'm talking about a minute or two's advice that when placed in writing lasts for at least two thousand years, saving billions of lives. If Jesus was compassionate enough to make just a few peoples lives better physically, why didn't he spend a couple of minutes explaining his awesome knowledge that would have been a tremendous boon for humanity? Instead he passed on nothing that ancient people didn't know already and kept silent about extremely valuable information that he carried with him wherever he went. Even worse, he instead gave contradictory information about what was actually killing them. Where's the love in that?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

Og3
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by Og3 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:56 pm

What does a three-year-old do when you tell him not to touch dead birds on the ground? Does he take your life-saving sanitary advice?

Till We Have Faces, C.S. Lewis. Give it a shot.

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marcuspnw
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Re: How Jesus Let Millions Die If He Was The Real Deal

Post by marcuspnw » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:07 am

Og3 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:35 pm

In light of the fact that my point was that in light of eternity, any bad thing that happens in this life is, by comparison, meaningless -- well, the infinities are not gratuitous now, are they?
By following your logic then Christ's suffering on the cross was in the light of eternity, meaningless.

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