Where the **** was Paul?

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:34 pm

Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:46 am
Maybe he was busy with other things. The Pharisees, as I've tried to explain, were a political party.

What you are asking, in effect, is why all the Liberal Party in Oz didn't rush to the beach in 1967 and search for Harold Holt. Or why the Tories weren't on the beach protesting his dastardly escape from their clutches.
Busy with other things? What on Earth would be more important to Paul than to miss THAT?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:35 pm

The Tories were in England mate!
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:16 pm

Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am
Blasphemy was the stated charge, but Ananias (Whom Josephus consistently calls Ananus) couldn't make it stick. Two witnesses must agree under Jewish law in order for a death sentence to be carried out.
Two witnesses? There were thousands witnessing his miracles according to you!
There were attempts at stoning Jesus, but He eluded them.

Who escapes from a stoning twice? They couldn't have been too serious about it. Btw, the ones that stoned Paul must have been pussies and used stones the size of pebbles to slightly irritate him.
On another occasion, people tried to throw Him off of a cliff.
Now you are telling porkies! The "city" of Nazareth as stated in the NT had no synagogue or cliff. The nearest elevation is a hill about 2 miles out from the centre of town. To throw him down that would have resulted in a couple of skinned knees at worst! That's just ludicrous.
Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am
Now, a curious point: The Pharisees state to Pilate that they cannot condemn a man to death. This authority had been taken away within Jesus' lifetime. This is significant because Jacob, blessing his sons, said this of Judah: "The scepter will not depart from Judah or the staff from between his feet until He whose right it is comes and the obedience of the peoples belongs to Him" (Gen 49:10 HCSB). With the seizing of authority to pass judgment unto death, the Romans effectively removed the scepter from Judah (Judea) and the staff from between his feet. So the One had already come to whom these things belonged.

And that is why the Romans had to be involved, and why a charge of inciting insurrection, obviously false according to Pilate's own examination of the facts, had to be raised as an excuse. No Roman would have executed a man for impiety and blasphemy.

Jesus had to be killed, in the mind of the Pharisees, because of the things He said. At a festival celebrating God's glory, Jesus declared Himself the Light of the World. At a ritual involving ritual purification of water, Jesus declared, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me." At a ritual involving wheat offerings, Jesus declared "I am the Bread of Life." In short, He was saying, over and over and over, that He was God incarnate.

Then he went so far as to raise Lazarus from the dead. This was intolerable. So they began to plot how they might kill Him.
Lazarus was a fictional character in the parable of a rich man. How was that admitted as evidence? Anyway John 18 completely contradicts the synoptic gospels re the arrest and who cuts off who's ear. Why wasn't that immediately punishable by death? John also gets the day of the trial wrong, he has it on Wednesday. These stories are nearly as mixed up as the resurrection. Can you make this make any chronological sense of this mess?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:07 am

SEG wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:16 pm
Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am
Blasphemy was the stated charge, but Ananias (Whom Josephus consistently calls Ananus) couldn't make it stick. Two witnesses must agree under Jewish law in order for a death sentence to be carried out.
Two witnesses? There were thousands witnessing his miracles according to you!
They were not charging him with miracles; they charged Him with speaking blasphemy. That is why, one occasion, when they took up stones to stone Him, He said, "I have done many good things; for which of them do you stone me?"
SEG wrote:
Og wrote:There were attempts at stoning Jesus, but He eluded them.

Who escapes from a stoning twice? They couldn't have been too serious about it. Btw, the ones that stoned Paul must have been pussies and used stones the size of pebbles to slightly irritate him.
On another occasion, people tried to throw Him off of a cliff.
Now you are telling porkies! The "city" of Nazareth as stated in the NT had no synagogue or cliff. The nearest elevation is a hill about 2 miles out from the centre of town. To throw him down that would have resulted in a couple of skinned knees at worst! That's just ludicrous.
Really? Since you have previously disputed the existence of Nazareth, you know claim that it DID exist, and that you know where it was, and that you know the geography of it in the first century, "As stated in the NT."

Who'd telling Porkies, SEG? Are you looking in a mirror? Show me where in the NT that it states that Nazareth had no elevations at that time "As stated in the NT.".
SEG wrote:
Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am
Now, a curious point: The Pharisees state to Pilate that they cannot condemn a man to death. This authority had been taken away within Jesus' lifetime. This is significant because Jacob, blessing his sons, said this of Judah: "The scepter will not depart from Judah or the staff from between his feet until He whose right it is comes and the obedience of the peoples belongs to Him" (Gen 49:10 HCSB). With the seizing of authority to pass judgment unto death, the Romans effectively removed the scepter from Judah (Judea) and the staff from between his feet. So the One had already come to whom these things belonged.

And that is why the Romans had to be involved, and why a charge of inciting insurrection, obviously false according to Pilate's own examination of the facts, had to be raised as an excuse. No Roman would have executed a man for impiety and blasphemy.

Jesus had to be killed, in the mind of the Pharisees, because of the things He said. At a festival celebrating God's glory, Jesus declared Himself the Light of the World. At a ritual involving ritual purification of water, Jesus declared, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me." At a ritual involving wheat offerings, Jesus declared "I am the Bread of Life." In short, He was saying, over and over and over, that He was God incarnate.

Then he went so far as to raise Lazarus from the dead. This was intolerable. So they began to plot how they might kill Him.
Lazarus was a fictional character in the parable of a rich man. How was that admitted as evidence? Anyway John 18 completely contradicts the synoptic gospels re the arrest and who cuts off who's ear. Why wasn't that immediately punishable by death? John also gets the day of the trial wrong, he has it on Wednesday. These stories are nearly as mixed up as the resurrection. Can you make this make any chronological sense of this mess?
Lazarus in the parable may or may not have been the same person as Simon the Leper, surnamed Lazarus, of Bethany, whom Jesus raised from the dead, and whose resurrection John attributes as a possible cause of the conspiracy against Jesus.

The Bible Project does a really good literary analysis of John's Gospel here:
Part One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-2e9mMf7E8
Part Two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUfh_wOsauk

And then you throw in a completely irrelevant argument, as yet another smokescreen. Now, SEG, I have trouble believing that a former firefighter could be so badly afflicted with ADHD as you would have to be if you could not focus better than this. And that saddens me, because it makes unflattering implications about your sincerity. You're better than lobbing a smoke grenade and running out the back door, SEG.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:13 am

SEG wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:34 pm
Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:46 am
Maybe he was busy with other things. The Pharisees, as I've tried to explain, were a political party.

What you are asking, in effect, is why all the Liberal Party in Oz didn't rush to the beach in 1967 and search for Harold Holt. Or why the Tories weren't on the beach protesting his dastardly escape from their clutches.
Busy with other things? What on Earth would be more important to Paul than to miss THAT?
What would be more important to a Liberal Party member in 1967 than to rescue their beloved leader?
What would be more important to a Tory in 1967 than to castigate the hated leader of the Liberal Party?

Why would they miss THAT?

For the same reason Paul missed the trial and crucifixion of Jesus: He probably didn't know about it. Honestly SEG, now you're being silly.

And by the way, naming a swimming pool in Sydney for a man presumed to have drowned is in extremely poor taste. Ironically funny, but in poor taste.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:15 am

SEG wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:35 pm
The Tories were in England mate!
Whigs, then. Or Bimetallists. Tasmanian Abolitionists. Whatever the opposition party would be, if the Liberals were in power.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 am

Og3 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:07 am
They were not charging him with miracles; they charged Him with speaking blasphemy. That is why, one occasion, when they took up stones to stone Him, He said, "I have done many good things; for which of them do you stone me?"
miracle
/ˈmɪrək(ə)l/Submit
noun
an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
Who created the miracles, God or Jesus? If they thought Jesus was trying to create miracles just like a god, that would constitute blasphemy.
SEG wrote:
Who escapes from a stoning twice? They couldn't have been too serious about it. Btw, the ones that stoned Paul must have been pussies and used stones the size of pebbles to slightly irritate him.
Og3 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:07 am
On another occasion, people tried to throw Him off of a cliff.
Now you are telling porkies! The "city" of Nazareth as stated in the NT had no synagogue or cliff. The nearest elevation is a hill about 2 miles out from the centre of town. To throw him down that would have resulted in a couple of skinned knees at worst! That's just ludicrous.[/quote]
Really? Since you have previously disputed the existence of Nazareth, you know claim that it DID exist, and that you know where it was, and that you know the geography of it in the first century, "As stated in the NT."
I have never stated that Narareth didn't exist. I've said that there is no verifiable evidence that it was a city or a town at the time of Jesus. It never had a cliff or a synagogue either, as stated in the NT.
Luke 4:16-30 King James Version (KJV)
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
You are probably think of The NIV translation et al which promotes the lie that there was a cliff:
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
Cliffs don't shrink drastically over two thousand years, they shrink slowly by erosion over millions of years. The closest hill is 2 miles from the city centre, Mount Precipice. This tumble off the peak would have skinned his knees terribly if the crowd would have bothered to frog march him all the way to the top, but he got clean away AGAIN! He did he do that? Maybe he bolted down the hill hiking up his tunic with the crowd in hot pursuit a la Benny Hill? Who knows?

What a stupid story!
Og3 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am
No Roman would have executed a man for impiety and blasphemy.
No, but they would have killed on the spot a character that was overturning tables and using a whip in a money changing centre. No silly trial for something like that, a sword would have done the trick. Your meek and mild lamb would not have stood a chance against armed guards.
Lazarus was a fictional character in the parable of a rich man. How was that admitted as evidence? Anyway John 18 completely contradicts the synoptic gospels re the arrest and who cuts off who's ear. Why wasn't that immediately punishable by death? John also gets the day of the trial wrong, he has it on Wednesday. These stories are nearly as mixed up as the resurrection. Can you make this make any chronological sense of this mess?
Lazarus in the parable may or may not have been the same person as Simon the Leper, surnamed Lazarus, of Bethany, whom Jesus raised from the dead, and whose resurrection John attributes as a possible cause of the conspiracy against Jesus.
Are you saying that a fictional character in a parable could have been a real person?
And then you throw in a completely irrelevant argument,
It's very relevant if we were talking about the arrest of Jesus - which we were. I was saying that John 18 completely contradicts the synoptic gospels re the arrest and I asked you to make any chronological sense of this mess? Are you too scared to answer that question?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:03 am

So let me get this straight: There IS a town of Nazareth, but it definitely, in your imaginations, wasn't there at the time of Christ. You're certain of this. And if it wasn't there, there CERTAINLY was neither a cliff nor a synagogue in the town. Or even if it was. Which it wasn't.

I see.

And because Geography doesn't change, there is no possibility that a cliff formerly there -- keeping in mind that 30 feet is enough to kill a man, and 20 feet will probably damage him severely -- despite the fact that Parcutin, a volcano in Mexico, rose from flat land in 1943 to a mountain 1100 feet tall in 1944. So geography doesn't change, and you have the ordnance maps to prove it, by golly.

I see.

How long have you felt this way? What are the voices telling you right now? Do you think that these feelings may cause you to injure yourself or others?
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by SEG » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:41 am

Og3 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:03 am
So let me get this straight: There IS a town of Nazareth, but it definitely, in your imaginations, wasn't there at the time of Christ. You're certain of this.
How did you go from me saying:
I have never stated that Narareth didn't exist. I've said that there is no verifiable evidence that it was a city or a town at the time of Jesus.
To;
There IS a town of Nazareth, but it definitely, in your imaginations, wasn't there at the time of Christ. You're certain of this.
I didn't say it definitely wasn't there at the time of Christ or I was certain of this. I'm not certain and it could have been there at the time of Christ, but I am saying that there is no definite viable evidence that it was a city, town or even a hamlet. What it did have evidence of and lots of it, were kokhim tombs that were dated post 50 CE. This fact I am quite certain of.
And if it wasn't there, there CERTAINLY was neither a cliff nor a synagogue in the town. Or even if it was. Which it wasn't.
You have nearly got it right. If it wasn't inhabited at the time of Jesus, there CERTAINLY was neither a cliff nor a synagogue in the town. Or houses. Or terracing for growing crops. But awkwardly there were tombs built under the bedroom of the make believe house in the current Nazareth Village, right under Mary's bedroom!
And because Geography doesn't change, there is no possibility that a cliff formerly there -- keeping in mind that 30 feet is enough to kill a man, and 20 feet will probably damage him severely -- despite the fact that Parcutin, a volcano in Mexico, rose from flat land in 1943 to a mountain 1100 feet tall in 1944. So geography doesn't change, and you have the ordnance maps to prove it, by golly.
We aren't talking about volcanoes that erupt and alter the geography, we are talking about a CLIFF!
cliff
/klɪf/Submit
noun
a steep rock face, especially at the edge of the sea.
"a coast path along the top of rugged cliffs"
As for the synagogue, a building like that is not hard to uncover in archaeology and they are indicative of a thriving community . How would you lose one of those and have no evidence of any domestic buildings?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: Where the **** was Paul?

Post by Og3 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:34 pm

So what you're really protesting is not so much whether the town, the cliff or the synagogue was or wasn't really there, but whether moderns who revere certain places as "The house of Mary" have gotten the right spot?

There are simply layers of bad logic in that...
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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