How do we approach a new proposition?

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Og3
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Og3 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Lich wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:12 pm
At this point, nobody is rebutting my arguments anymore, instead choosing to ignore them and either mock me, or act as if they can somehow be correct without having to refute an opposing argument. In light of that, the fact that I'm being accused of being delusional is hilariously ironic.

That said, unless someone wants to attempt to actually refute the arguments I've made, I won't be speaking on either subject anymore. You guys have fun.
Whiners play alone.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
Posts: 2034
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by SEG » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:22 pm

Lich wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:12 pm
At this point, nobody is rebutting my arguments anymore, instead choosing to ignore them and either mock me, or act as if they can somehow be correct without having to refute an opposing argument. In light of that, the fact that I'm being accused of being delusional is hilariously ironic.

That said, unless someone wants to attempt to actually refute the arguments I've made, I won't be speaking on either subject anymore. You guys have fun.
I've challenged you for a debate on your own turf, are you up for it?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by SEG » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 am

SEG wrote:God orders his army to kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, innocent animals, infants, toddlers, and babies. The doctors' intent is to split the bellies of pregnant women is not to murder them in the cruellest fashion, it is to compassionately save their lives or their baby's lives. This is your god's intent:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:
SEG wrote:Now you have to reconcile and excuse this abhorrent behaviour and recognise it as "good" just because your god commanded it.
What I have to recognize is that the baby burners had it coming. They had people telling them not to go doing that; they had over 430 years while the Israelites were down in Egypt to say to themselves, "You know, burning our babies is kind of sick." But they didn't. So they suffered judgment.
In Contradiction to the above, it looks like God endorses child sacrifice and Christians should accept and obey his commands, regarding it without question. See:
Genesis 22:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
and;
Judges 11:30-39 New International Version (NIV)
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

From this comes the Israelite tradition
In the same way, if you run red lights, and you keep running red lights, and you refuse to stop running red lights, then after 4.3 years of you running red lights, the highway patrol disqualifies you for life and gives you two years in the slammer (Gaol, Jail, hoosegow, lockup, lockdown)... guess what? You deserved it.
In the same way, if you sacrifice your only son, (even if he is willing) the police give you twenty-two years in the slammer (Gaol, Jail, hoosegow, lockup, lockdown)... guess what? You deserved it.
SEG wrote: Don't you think that man is made in God's image?
Og3 wrote: A coin may be made in Queen Elizabeth's image, but aside from the likeness, it shares no attributes with her.
SEG wrote: Are you really comparing the image of God to the image of Queen Elizabeth? Are you saying that the image of God is nothing special?
No, it is quite special. In the same way that having Queen Elizabeth's image implies that she owns your money (and your nation and your person -- you guys might want to rethink your coinage, just saying), so the image of God implies that he owns our persons.
No, she doesn't own our money, Queen Elizabeth is on Australian Currency because she is Head of State. Practically speaking she is only a figure head, just like your god. Except she has proof of her existence.
Betty Saxe-Coburg's image on your coins implies that they are made by her order
Sorry, no such person exists. Queen Elizabeth was born with the last name Windsor as she was born into the House of Windsor. The Royals don't really need last names anyway, as everyone knows who they are. Our currency aren't made by her order and never have been. The Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) issues bank notes and coin in Australia. The Reserve Bank Act 1959 stipulates, among other things, that Australian banknotes be printed by, or under the authority of, the Reserve Bank.
-- and once they were -- so also YHWH's image on mankind implies that we were made by his order.
That's just wishful thinking and an empty assertion.
SEG wrote:I would have thought the image of God included his loving nature. Perhaps not.
I doubt that you're looking for a digression on the theological opinions of "Made in the image of God" but the best and wideset opinion is that the image is in our spiritual nature and reason, which the lesser beast lack. They can solve problems, perhaps; we can discuss the meaning of life and produce artworks, which they cannot. They may add or subtract with proper training, but we can question the very basis of numbers themselves. &cetera.
This is more of the above.
So your idea to deal with people roasting babies would be to roast their babies? Also if the world is full of wicked people (how does that make any sense anyway?) instead of not making them with the ability to be wicked in the first place, or putting them to sleep peacefully with the snap of his fingers, he cruelly drowns EVERYTHING that breatheth. Can you see anything wrong with that sort of twisted thinking?
Show me chapter and verse where God orders the roasting of a baby.
Sure! The context is within one of the most vilest parts of the Bible, where numerous bad ethical values are demonstrated;
Exodus 21:1–36

21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,1 he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her2 for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 n“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then pI will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found sin possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,4 then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man’s son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
SEG wrote:That's a really big problem OG. God is reflected in vastly different ways by thousands of versions of Christian denominations in thousands of contradictory moral platforms. It is impossible to know what we would need to do to be like God.
Actually, I've done a survey on this. 95% of self-identified Christians in my survey could completely agree with the Pre-Pauline doctrine and with the Nicene creed. The majority of denominations differentiate on issues such as whether domestic missions or foreign missions should be given greater emphasis (CBC split from ABC on that issue). But if you doubt me, name three significant DOCTRINAL differences between COE and RCC.
Your problem is that God's word is not split between just COE and RCC. Here are just a few inconsistencies in God's word: in God's word

Hit the decks, here comes a gigantic slab of copied content!

Compare the basic beliefs of seven different Christian denominations, Anglican/Episcopal, Assembly of God, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic.
Creeds and Confessions
What do different Christian denominations believe? You can start with the creeds and confessions, which spell out their basic beliefs in a short summary The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed both date back to the fourth century

Anglican/Episcopal: Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed
Assembly of God: Statement of Fundamental Truths.
Baptist: Generally avoid creeds or confessions that might compromise commitment to Scripture as sole rule of faith.
Lutheran: Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed Athanasian Creed, Augsburg Confession, Formula of Concord.
Methodist: Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed
Presbyterian: Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed Westminster Confession.
Roman Catholic: Many, yet focus on the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed

Inerrancy and Inspiration of Scripture
Christian denominations differ in how they view the authority of the scripture. Inspired means they believe God or the Holy Spirit directed the writing of the scripture. Inerrant means scripture is without error or fault in all that it is teaching, although it does not always mean a literal interpretation.

Anglican/Episcopal: Inspired, according to the. Book of Common Prayers, the Catechism
Baptist: Inspired and inerrant.
Lutheran: The Lutheran Church Missouri Syndod (LCMS) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America consider scripture to be inspired and inerrant.
Methodist: Inspired and inerrant.
Presbyterian: PCUSA: "For some the Bible is inerrant; for others it is not necessarily factual, but it breathes with the life of God."
Roman Catholic: God is the author of sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ...we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." Catechism - 2nd Edition

Basis for Doctrine
Christian denominations differ in what they use for the basis of their doctrines and beliefs. The biggest split is between Catholicism and the denominations that have roots in the Protestant Reformation.

Anglican/Episcopal: The Scriptures and the Gospels, church fathers.
Assembly of God: The Bible only.
Baptist: The Bible only.
Lutheran: The Bible only.
Methodist: The Bible only.
Presbyterian: The Bible and the Confession of Faith.
Roman Catholic: The Bible, church fathers, popes, bishops.
Trivial differences. The apostles' creed is a subset of the Nicene Creed, and the athanasian creed is an expansion of the Nicene creed. All of them are more specific and more detailed versions of the Pre-Pauline Doctrine found in 1 Cor. 15.

If you were to walk up to an Assembler of God on the street (trust me, I know many) and were to read him the Athanasian creed word for word, he would tell you that he agreed with it, word for word. Likewise a Baptist. Assuming of course, that each of them knew the meanings of the words; a couple of the usages are a bit outdated.
But walk into Hillsong church (if nothing else you'd love the music) and ask Bryan Houston (who is Pentacostal, if I'm not mistaken, a close cousin of AoG) if he agrees that Jesus was "Very God of Very God" as the Nicene and Athanasian creeds state, and he will say yes. If Billy Graham, the old Baptist minister, or Franklin Graham, his son, were asked that question, they would say Yes. I can state that with confidence, knowing quite well the doctrines of those groups.
Yeah? How about Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Philadelphia Church of God, Global Church of God, United Church of God,
Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, and Unity School of Christianity? All Christian denominations and all don't recognise Jesus as God's son. This only one issue among thousands of quibbles on God's words. Which is the correct one to believe everything? Where is his unalterable manual? Just like him, it doesn't exist.
So your data dump here, instead of proving me wrong, proves me right. They all agree on the most basic doctrines.

Likewise the remainder of the data dump: Differences in wording but no differences in substance.
Yeah? Who defines what is substance and what isn't? It's a mess, be honest.
That's commendable, it shows that you are a lot more compassionate and tolerant than your angel casting god. Edit: I should have said "a church" not "your church". Talking of "your church", I see the Southern Baptists have a reputation for putting down black people, is that a fair statement?
Historically, there have been racial issues in America, and the church has gotten involved. At one time, the SBC had black churches and white churches, and they did not mix. All I can say about that is that churches are composed of sinful humans in need of a Savior.

Personally, from my youngest youth, I have seen black persons invited and welcomed into the church I attended then, and black preachers have preached to whites from the pulpit. Demographically, that neighborhood was <1% black at that time -- There is a greater hispanic than black or white population in that neighborhood now.

In my present church -- the former one eventually could not keep the lights on -- there are currently six deacons:
(1) White, non-hispanic, speaks Spanish and Portugeuse
(2) White, non-hispanic, no other languages.
(2) Hispanic
(1) Samoan

I was recently asked to provide sound and lighting assistance for a wedding in which I was the only white person present; the 300 attendees were all black. The photographer was hispanic, and at one point asked us to turn up the lights. One of the black men quipped, "Yeah, all he can see on the camera are teeth and eyeballs." I would never have said that, but this fellow felt comfortable making that joke.

I can tell you that in general the current makeup of my church comprises a variety of ethnicities and national origins, and that persons of any race would be welcome.
That's also commendable that you guys have moved on from your seedy past if this is true. I'm also glad that white Christian groups don't persecute blacks in the US - or do they?
Instructions of your god for others to commit atrocities in his name are just as culpable as him doing them himself. Heard of Hitler or Charles Manson? Besides in just the instance of the flood he directly killed millions of people if you believe your own Bible. When your god terminated the lives of a human beings without their consent by his command or directly, he was morally wrong via the standards of the majority of the world's population. To make it even worse, he specifically created a place that tortures people infinitely for committing finite crimes.

To make it even worse, you defend all of that.
You're missing my point.

People often confuse things done by people in the Bible and prophecies made of future judgments with actual commands of God. If I tell you not to walk down Main street at night or else the folks there will rob you, I am not instructing the people there to rob you. Likewise, if I tell you that somebody robbed someone, I am not telling you to go and do likewise.

Take your list of atrocities and reduce it to those instances where God specifically said, "Go to X and do Y." Then remove the judgment of the baby-roasters.

Then we can talk about your list of atrocities and charges against God.
He directly killed millions compared to the few killed by Satan as both are outlined in your Bible. The baby roasters were saints compared to the blood thirsty war god.

Source: https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co ... bible.html
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.
Total number killed by God in the Bible
- Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364
- With estimates: 25 million

(The table has been updated to include God's killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I'll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.)

Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 1,000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54 70,000
9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8 10,000
10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25 300,000
11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30 500,000
12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
13 Amalekites Ex 17:13 1,000
14 Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
15 Aaron's golden calf Ex 32:35 1,000
16 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3 2 2
17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 100
19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33 10,000
20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110
21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1
22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9
23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250
24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2 3,000
26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6 100
27 Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 500,000
30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 5,000
31 God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000
32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000
33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21 1,000
34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5
35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11 5,000
37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21 5,000
41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8 1,000
43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 5,000
44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
47 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600
48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 1,000
49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1
50 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000
52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33 20,000
53 Jephthah's daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
54 42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000
55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30
56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14 4,000
60 God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002
61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 3,000
62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11 1,000
64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13 1,000
65 Jonathan's first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20
66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20 1,000
67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam 15:2-3 10,000
68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1
70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam 18:27 200 200
71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 10,000
72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1
73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11 60,000
74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17 1,000
75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100
76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1
77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2
78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 2,000
79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1
80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2 667
81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 - 10 65,850 66,850
82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000
83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1 1,000
84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1
85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
86 David's mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000
88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2
89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
90 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
91 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29 10
92 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 20
93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1
94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18 3,000
95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450
96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 10,000
97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1
103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 5,000
105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1
106 God's seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 7,000
107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
109 Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
110 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11 20
111 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42
112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family 2 Kg 10:17 20
113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25 1,000
114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2
115 God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26 10
116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000
117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1
118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20 100
119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 50,000
120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
123 Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25 30,000
124 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
125 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1 3
126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1
127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000
129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000
130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 10,000
132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 - 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813
133 God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1
135 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2
137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1
138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6 1,000
139 Mathathias's double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2
140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44 100
141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1
142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1
143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900
144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000
145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000
146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000
147 Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002
148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac 9:46-49, 2 Mac 8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200
149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400
150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1
151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100
152 Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac 15:1-35 35,000 35,000
153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000
154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000
155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 12:8-9 1,000
156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2
157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1
158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1
Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828
Posted by Steve Wells
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Claire » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:24 am

Og3 wrote:
Lich wrote:
SEG wrote:How do you discern between air and oxygen? You must be superhuman if you can.
Discernment is not a requisite of feeling it. Oxygen exists in air, thus since air can be felt, oxygen is also felt.
I see. So if you perceive the window, then you need not discern the ninjas on your front lawn, so long as you discern the window itself.

Sorry Folks. I love a good argument as well as the next guy, but I can't bring myself to make fun of the mentally ill. I'm out on this one.
Lich wrote:False equivalence. Oxygen is inherently part of air. Ninjas are not a part of windows(inherently or otherwise). Yet another false premise from the self proclaimed "logician."
We weren't able to break the constituent parts of air down until recently in human history, and we didn't know much about oxygen as a distinct thing from air. Our ancestors didn't feel the oxygen on roughly 20% of their skin, vs the other 80% of the "air" touching it. If you were to wear an oxygen tank, sent into different rooms where some had oxygen in the air, and others didn't, and the pressure is still the same, you'd be unable to tell which rooms held oxygen based on the feeling on your skin. Also, "air" doesn't inherently contain oxygen, unless you want to specify that by "air" you mean the air that exists on Earth's surface.

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SEG
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by SEG » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:17 am

captain howdy wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:51 pm
Lich wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:12 pm
At this point, nobody is rebutting my arguments anymore, instead choosing to ignore them and either mock me, or act as if they can somehow be correct without having to refute an opposing argument. In light of that, the fact that I'm being accused of being delusional is hilariously ironic.

That said, unless someone wants to attempt to actually refute the arguments I've made, I won't be speaking on either subject anymore. You guys have fun.
Then allow me to retort: Fuck off
Well said Captain. I guess he can go away and debate all the lamp posts he wants now.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Og3 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:55 pm

In the same way, if you sacrifice your only son, (even if he is willing) the police give you twenty-two years in the slammer (Gaol, Jail, hoosegow, lockup, lockdown)... guess what? You deserved it.
God stopped Abraham's sacrifice -- we've had this conversation before, I think -- so he did not sacrifice Isaac. The event was a symbol of what would happen on that mountain 2000 years later, when God's only son would lay down His life in atonement for the sins of mankind: Jesus, high priest, carrying Jesus, the sacrifice, into the temple of Jesus, God, for the sins of mankind.

Jepthah's sacrifice was not requested, ordained, or honored by God. It is included in the Bible as a bad example, that is, don't make rash pagan oaths before God; he's not that kind of god.

On your list, seriously, you've made no effort to separate what God commanded from just random bad acts, some of which were actually condemned by God.
Just on a quick glance, 1 and 5 don't belong at all, and 136-155 are all references in the Apochrypha, a set of pious stories that are not actually scripture.
in 10, the ten spies actually live out their natural life span (40 years), but merely are not allowed to enter the promised land. 49, 53, 54 are all things humans did without any reference to God or morality... 61 is not a murder... 72 is arguably a mercy killing, since he had suffered a stroke when his wife gave him bad news during his hangover... 75 is a prediction of a future outcome, i.e., the family line will end badly , 76, 77, 85, 86, 88, are bad acts by others, not God; 119-131 are from chronicles, which recaps other parts of the old testament...

If you were to bring 158 charges against someone before a magistrate, and 45 of them the judge immediately knew to be misrepresentations of the facts, the judge would likely throw out the entire case and fine you for contempt; you would then be open to a civil charge of malicious prosecution. Not to mention disbarment.

Since we're not in a courtroom, the fact that 45/158 charges are ridiculous on the face of them should make you go back and examine the rest of them. And if you remove the Capital Punishments of pagan baby-killers, you're down to nearly nothing at all. Okay, you could argue against Onan, maybe, but even that one's going to come up as a justifiable killing in the context.

You shouldn't cut and paste someone else's list; it will invariably bring you to grief. Do your own research, SEG.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Og3 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:10 pm

SEG wrote:Yeah? How about Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Philadelphia Church of God, Global Church of God, United Church of God, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, and Unity School of Christianity? All Christian denominations and all don't recognise Jesus as God's son. This only one issue among thousands of quibbles on God's words. Which is the correct one to believe everything? Where is his unalterable manual? Just like him, it doesn't exist.
Those are all pseudo-Christian sects (avoiding the pejorative word "cult") which have deliberately perverted the Bible. It's like me trying to prove atheists wrong because they disagree with zoroastrians or Roman Stoics. Give me a break here, SEG. You know this is a stretch: We've discussed Mormonism separately.
Yeah? Who defines what is substance and what isn't? It's a mess, be honest.
Well, the whole point of a creed is to define what's of substance. So the first definition of what was of substance were the disciples, Peter and John, together with Jesus' brother, James (the one mentioned in the universally accepted passage from Josephus); they wrote the Pre-pauline doctrine, which they taught to Paul, who recites it in 1. Cor. 15.

The other creeds are merely clarifications and expansion of the pre-pauline doctrine. Here's a test for you, if you really want to know the truth: Print the Nicene creed, cover the name of it, and then go round to all the christians you can find and ask them to put tick marks next to every point of that creed with which they agree. You'll have to explain the archaic words "catholic" (meaning universal) and "apostolic" (meaning having people sent out to share it). You can walk down the high street and simply ask people, "Are you a Christian?" and if so, "Do you agree with these points?"

Ministers will be onto you; they'll likely say that it's the Nicene creed, and of course they believe it; on the other hand a few percent of random Christians will think you're up to something and will be a bit cagey about it. But I'll wager that 90% will agree without reservations, and 95% so long as you explain "catholic" means universal. Up for a scientific experiment?
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Og3 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:28 pm

How often does one have a chance to test one's theories scientifically, after all?
SEG wrote: That's also commendable that you guys have moved on from your seedy past if this is true. I'm also glad that white Christian groups don't persecute blacks in the US - or do they?
I can speak for the Baptist churches in my local area.

The local association of Baptist churches, which covers the West Coast from just below San Francisco to just above Santa Barbara, and inland to the first mountain ranges, has a very large percentage of Chinese and Korean churches in some areas (especially the South Bay Area) and a large number of black churches in the East Bay Area (both of these clusters reflect local demographics). A person of any race would be welcome at any church in that association (Baptists voluntarily work with other local Baptist churches for things like missions, starting new fellowships, mutual support, etc., but the association does not exert any direct control over local churches; we're different from CoE or RCC in that respect).

Legally, in the USA, one cannot persecute anyone. If a black man wished to join an all-white church and was rejected on the basis of race, he would have the option of suing that church for damages. Hopefully, no one would do such a thing -- reject a man for race, or sue other Christians over race. If my discussion on a bus in Singapore with an ex-pat. from RSA is any indication, a black man is far more likely to be "persecuted" in Singapore than in Birmingham, Alabama.

That gentleman, who had emigrated from the Republic of South Africa to Singapore, struck up a conversation based on my American accent, and then proceeded to ask about race relations in the USA (apparently the picture you all have of us, there in the commonwealth nations, is that we ride blacks around like ponies or something). From there he started to tell me how scientists had proven blacks to have a smaller cranial capacity than whites.

I got off the bus well before my stop, and found my own way back to the Sembawang wharves.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by Rian » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:28 pm
I can speak for the Baptist churches in my local area.

The local association of Baptist churches, which covers the West Coast from just below San Francisco to just above Santa Barbara, and inland to the first mountain ranges...
Are you in mid/northern California, Og3? I'm a SoCal girl, and so glad to be back home after an 11-year sojourn in the (neighboring) desert of Arizona, where you can literally fry an egg on the sidewalk in the summer *gag*

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Re: How do we approach a new proposition?

Post by SEG » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:21 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:55 pm
In the same way, if you sacrifice your only son, (even if he is willing) the police give you twenty-two years in the slammer (Gaol, Jail, hoosegow, lockup, lockdown)... guess what? You deserved it.
God stopped Abraham's sacrifice -- we've had this conversation before, I think -
- so he did not sacrifice Isaac. The event was a symbol of what would happen on that mountain 2000 years later, when God's only son would lay down His life in atonement for the sins of mankind: Jesus, high priest, carrying Jesus, the sacrifice, into the temple of Jesus, God, for the sins of mankind.
This is a terrible story on many levels, even though none of it was likely to be true. God commands Abraham to commit murder on his unsuspecting son by using deception for the purpose child sacrifice.
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
Abraham lied to his own son, telling him that God would provide the lamb for the burnt offering after his son innocently asked him what was going on. This is child abuse at the highest level, and it was all instigated by God. He should have had the power of omniscience and had no need for any such "test". Imagine Isaac's immense fear for his life and the loathing of his father when he realised that he had been tricked by this crazed fool.

Yet Christians reading this are often in awe of God's mercy, even though he thought up this absurd test. What would it prove anyway? That he was a servile sycophant that would murder his own son on request? Mentally ill people would read this and think that they should accept and obey voices in their head that they imagine was from their god, regarding it logical to murder without question.
Jepthah's sacrifice was not requested, ordained, or honored by God. It is included in the Bible as a bad example, that is, don't make rash pagan oaths before God; he's not that kind of god.
Do you know what? A truly loving, benevolent and omniscient god upon hearing Jepthah say: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” Should have stopped him in his tracks and said, "No, there is no need to make a vow like that as that would be your sweet innocent daughter. If you killed her that would be a terrible mistake and a violation of my absolute moral commandment, "thou shalt not kill". We both know what the penalty for that is, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
On your list, seriously, you've made no effort to separate what God commanded from just random bad acts, some of which were actually condemned by God.
Just on a quick glance, 1 and 5 don't belong at all, and 136-155 are all references in the Apochrypha, a set of pious stories that are not actually scripture.
Your god is absolutely guilty for murdering everybody in the flood, and here is what the author said about No.5:
it isn't entirely clear, from the story in Genesis 34 anyway, what God had to do with it. And for that reason, I originally left it off the list of God's killings. However the deuterocanonical book of Judith clears all that up very nicely.

Here's what it says.
O Lord God of my father Simeon, who gavest him a sword to execute vengeance against strangers, who had defiled by their uncleanness, and uncovered the virgin unto confusion: And who gavest their wives to be made a prey, and their daughters into captivity ... who were zealous with thy zeal. Judith 9:2-3 So God not only approved of the Shechem massacre, he gave Simeon the sword to do it with.

Thank God for the Catholic Bible.
Since the Bible doesn't say how many Hivites were killed in this massacre, I just gave it the usual 1000 for a standard biblical massacre. But two victims were known by name (Shechem and Hamor), so I added 2 to the "biblical number" for God's killings.
in 10, the ten spies actually live out their natural life span (40 years), but merely are not allowed to enter the promised land. 49, 53, 54 are all things humans did without any reference to God or morality... 61 is not a murder... 72 is arguably a mercy killing, since he had suffered a stroke when his wife gave him bad news during his hangover... 75 is a prediction of a future outcome, i.e., the family line will end badly , 76, 77, 85, 86, 88, are bad acts by others, not God; 119-131 are from chronicles, which recaps other parts of the old testament...

If you were to bring 158 charges against someone before a magistrate, and 45 of them the judge immediately knew to be misrepresentations of the facts, the judge would likely throw out the entire case and fine you for contempt; you would then be open to a civil charge of malicious prosecution. Not to mention disbarment.
Er, no. The failed ones would be dropped and the viable ones would still be prosecuted. He would be more guilty and ruthless than Hitler just on the millions of deaths of men, women, children babies and innocent animals alone.
Since we're not in a courtroom, the fact that 45/158 charges are ridiculous on the face of them should make you go back and examine the rest of them. And if you remove the Capital Punishments of pagan baby-killers, you're down to nearly nothing at all.
Wow, you are so right! God is one of the good guys, right? Wrong. Seriously bad morals, dude.

Okay, you could argue against Onan, maybe, but even that one's going to come up as a justifiable killing in the context.
Of course! Onan, should never have jizzed outside the vagina of his dead brother's wife. What was he thinking? He should have been thankful to the Lord for killing him for that little slip up (or slip out as it may be). That's one of God's main jobs peeking under the sheets late at night, all Christian boys and girls should know that!
You shouldn't cut and paste someone else's list; it will invariably bring you to grief. Do your own research, SEG.
Would it really make any difference to you? I have achieved my goal.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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