Mary, Mother of God

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:02 am

The following is from another thread, but it was more fitting to be discussed here:
Rian wrote:BTW, here's an ad that was on the Catholic encyclopedia where I was looking into these issues. This type of thing bothers me; I really think that the focus put on Mary is unnecessary and even detrimental, but I still think the RCC has the basic tenets right, so I wouldn't go around saying that the RCC is a cult and people shouldn't go there.

Image

The product description is this:
ad for Mary jewelry wrote:Product Description
The symbolism of this sterling silver bracelet indicates that the wearer has made the Total Consecration to Mary through the formula set forth by St. Louis Marie de Montfort in "True Devotion to Mary." This beautiful sterling silver bracelet, symbolic of the chains of slavery, features a centerpiece of the the "M" representing Mary and the cross entwined in it represents the slogan "to Jesus through Mary."

You won't find this unique bracelet anywhere else! Made exclusively for the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

"It is very praiseworthy and helpful for those who have become slaves of Jesus in Mary to wear, in token of their slavery of love." – True Devotion to Mary
I don't need to get to Jesus through Mary and neither does anyone else, and I think this type of thing is detrimental and confusing and takes away from the focus on Christ and getting on with his mission of loving God and loving others. However, I'm humble (in the good sense) enough to realize that I don't know all of God's ways, and that some people might be at a point in their lives where they need this, so I'm still not against the RCC as a whole, although I'll respectfully argue against some of their doctrines that IMO are harmful, while also realizing that my church isn't perfect, either.
The advertised bracelet is in reference to "slavery of love" mentioned in the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort, and the slogan "To Jesus through Mary". It's unlikely you've heard of any of that, and if not, did you take the time to research? The probability you didn't is high, but you should, so, in the meantime I'll briefly explain the book is a thirty-three day exercise for increasing one's spirituality, and ability to truly serve the Lord Jesus Christ. The bracelet is a symbol of recognition for completing the aforementioned spiritual exercise.

Now, Jesus didn't arrive on Earth like Superman. He was conceived in, carried by, born from, and educated by Mary whom God the Father chose. And, you've already gotten to Jesus not only through God the Father, but Mary as well, by Her "yes" to bringing Him into this world. What do you think the slogan "To Jesus through Mary" means, and why is it detrimental, confusing, taking the focus away from Christ, loving God, and others?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:56 am

Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:And, there are verses in the Bible that point to Mary being without sin, and a perpetual virgin;

Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Christ's virgin birth -- see also Matthew 1:23 & Luke 1:27-- and the term "virgin" does not only refer to an individual who abstains from sexual intercourse. It can also be used to describe someone who is ''inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity" and "an absolutely chaste young woman". One of the definitions of "chaste" is "pure in thought and act".

In Luke 1:28 Gabriel recognized Mary as being full of Grace. Grace gives light and knowledge to the soul. But, original sin, and the mortal one, removes Grace. So, if Mary had original sin, and committed personal sins, then She couldn't have been full of God's Grace at the same time.

As for Mary's perpetual virginity, in Luke 1:31 it's after Mary is espoused to Joseph that Gabriel tells Her She will conceive a child, and She asks, "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" That question doesn't make sense unless She had taken a vow of virginity. Also, notice Her response wasn't "How shall this be done, because I have not yet known man".

To conclude, I suggest reading Exodus 25. God gave Moses detailed instruction in regards to the creation of the Ark that was to carry His written word. How much more care and attention would He give to Mary, the Ark who would carry His Son, the Savior of world, and His Word made flesh?

I would argue these passages alone point to God having preserved Mary's soul from original sin, and Her being a perpetual virgin in thought/act. And, She maintained that immaculate state by Her natural, good faithful will.

Food for thought.
I think the RCC is really reaching here...
Maybe it wasn't clear, I'll try to be more clear.

I said they (the RCC) were really reaching, which means IMO their interpretation is not supported very well at all. Don't need to explain further than that - it just isn't supported. It's extremely vague extrapolation.
My views on Mary are also the teachings by the Catholic Church. So, to say they're reaching, have vague, unsupported arguments, and are taking away from Christ, is to say the same about me. And, you're accusing the Catholic Church of vague, unsupported arguments while using vague, unsupported arguments yourself. Bravo.

What's your interpretation of Is. 7:14, Mt. 1:23, Lk. 1:27-28, Lk. 1:34, and Lk. 1:49? Which Bible verse(s) do you consider support the argument Mary inherited original sin?

Rian wrote:And as far as the "detailed instruction to create the ark" thing - I can buy that God might have given "much more care and attention" creating Mary, but it definitely doesn't follow that she was created without original sin.
There's parallels between the ark of the covenant and Mary, and the ten commandments and Jesus. God desired the creation of a perfect ark to carry and protect His written word. So, why would He create an imperfect ark to carry and protect His word made flesh? If Mary was not created pure, in what way(s) do you think God might've created her different from other human beings?
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:The Catholic Church teachings regarding Mary are not, nor have ever been, matters of salvation.
I know it's not a matter of salvation, but they are making it about as close as you can get without actually saying she has a part in salvation, which I think is not merely unnecessary but also takes away from Christ's salvation work for us because of how much time and energy the RCC puts into Mary.
You admit it's not a matter of salvation, yet you try to keep with the argument that it is by saying it's "as close as you can get" without being a matter of salvation. Please elaborate. And, in what way(s) has the Catholic Church taken away from Jesus's sacrifice, and how He is our only Savior, in regards to Mary?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

Rian
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:34 pm

Claire wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:02 am

The advertised bracelet is in reference to "slavery of love" mentioned in the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort, and the slogan "To Jesus through Mary". It's unlikely you've heard of any of that, and if not, did you take the time to research? The probability you didn't is high...
Oh, and you're the queen of passive-aggressive insults, too.

I spent about 45 minutes reading the Catholic Encyclopedia (I don't use Wiki for things like this; I go to a primary source). And my objection was to the very slogan itself, plus some of the description I quoted. I think the very slogan itself is detrimental.

And I got to Jesus though God alone, not God and Mary. If you want to count Mary, then you need to count her parents, and their parents, etc. etc. back to Adam and Eve, who came from God, so yes, I got to Jesus through God alone, and so did you.

Goodbye. Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with. I'm serious, and don't mean this as an insult. You really have a problem. When the opinion about you is 100% in agreement about this, I think it would be wise to take it to God in prayer, and to some wise friends for counsel.

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 am

Rian wrote:Oh, and you're the queen of passive-aggressive insults, too.

I spent about 45 minutes reading the Catholic Encyclopedia (I don't use Wiki for things like this; I go to a primary source). And my objection was to the very slogan itself, plus some of the description I quoted. I think the very slogan itself is detrimental.
You didn't explain your understanding of what "To Jesus through Mary", or any other content in the bracelet's description box means. Nor why any of it is detrimental, confusing, takes away focus on Christ, and loving God/neighbor. That's why I say the probability is high you didn't research.
Rian wrote:And I got to Jesus though God alone, not God and Mary. If you want to count Mary, then you need to count her parents, and their parents, etc. etc. back to Adam and Eve, who came from God, so yes, I got to Jesus through God alone, and so did you.
Mary's entire lineage is meaningless in this regard, because God the Father chose Mary specifically to be the Mother of God the Son, and deliver Him into this world. What if She had refused?
Rian wrote:Mary already has enough honor without the whole sinless idea...
What do you honor Her for?
Rian wrote:Goodbye. Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with. I'm serious, and don't mean this as an insult. You really have a problem. When the opinion about you is 100% in agreement about this, I think it would be wise to take it to God in prayer, and to some wise friends for counsel.
You've claimed this before, yet they, including you, have sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions with anyway. And, if it's 100%, or "98.8%" impossible to have a real discussion with me, then why have you kept trying when those odds aren't in your favor? It appears as if you want to argue against my beliefs, but also play the victim to "the big, bad bully, Claire", using me as the scapegoat when any real substance in your argument has run dry. This allows you to extricate yourself from the debate, while simultaneously saving face, and taking a shot at me personally.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

Rian
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:34 pm

Claire wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 am
Rian wrote:Goodbye. Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with. I'm serious, and don't mean this as an insult. You really have a problem. When the opinion about you is 100% in agreement about this, I think it would be wise to take it to God in prayer, and to some wise friends for counsel.
You've claimed this before, yet they, including you, have sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions with anyway. And, if it's 100%, or "98.8%" impossible to have a real discussion with me, then why have you kept trying when those odds aren't in your favor?
I keep trying because I value people. But I have a family to love and serve and have fun with, and a serious health issue to manage (and I'm having insurance issues right now!), and sometimes I need to stop trying with you, get other things done, and get some strength back.
It appears as if you want to argue against my beliefs, but also play the victim to "the big, bad bully, Claire", using me as the scapegoat when any real substance in your argument has run dry. This allows you to extricate yourself from the debate, while simultaneously saving face, and taking a shot at me personally.
Your assessment of me is 100% wrong, but I doubt if you'll let yourself believe that.

Please take what I said to prayer. God uses the people around us to give us input, and when the consensus on you (of people who have spoken on the subject) is 100% in agreement, that's a pretty strong indicator. Please take it to God in prayer, and to the saints if that's helpful to you (although I, too, am a saint, according to the Bible), and to some wise counselors (my Mom has a wonderful priest, I hope you know some good ones too, I'm sure there are many). I wish you well.

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:51 am

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:Goodbye. Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with. I'm serious, and don't mean this as an insult. You really have a problem. When the opinion about you is 100% in agreement about this, I think it would be wise to take it to God in prayer, and to some wise friends for counsel.
You've claimed this before, yet they, including you, have sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions with anyway. And, if it's 100%, or "98.8%" impossible to have a real discussion with me, then why have you kept trying when those odds aren't in your favor?
I keep trying because I value people. But I have a family to love and serve and have fun with, and a serious health issue to manage (and I'm having insurance issues right now!), and sometimes I need to stop trying with you, get other things done, and get some strength back.
Despite your accusations I'm rude, and it's almost impossible to have a real discussion with me, you've sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions anyway. And, when you aren't using me as an excuse to bow out of them, it's your personal life off the forum. Your "value" for me doesn't replace, or justify the amount of my time (and yours) you've wasted on this forum. Now, you can make up for it by re-engaging in our unfinished discussions, and only if you plan on playing fair and following through. If you don't, it's no skin off my nose.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:It appears as if you want to argue against my beliefs, but also play the victim to "the big, bad bully, Claire", using me as the scapegoat when any real substance in your argument has run dry. This allows you to extricate yourself from the debate, while simultaneously saving face, and taking a shot at me personally.
Your assessment of me is 100% wrong, but I doubt if you'll let yourself believe that.
What I've described is how it appears, so I don't see a reason to believe otherwise.
Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with.
Please take it to God in prayer, and to the saints if that's helpful to you (although I, too, am a saint, according to the Bible), and to some wise counselors (my Mom has a wonderful priest, I hope you know some good ones too, I'm sure there are many).
I know it's uncomfortable when I call people out, and back into corners. But, blaming me for why discussions go south is counter-productive.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

Rian
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:20 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:51 am
Rian wrote:
Your assessment of me is 100% wrong, but I doubt if you'll let yourself believe that.
What I've described is how it appears, so I don't see a reason to believe otherwise.
So the actual person who is thinking the thoughts and telling you that you got them wrong is not even the tiniest reason for you to believe otherwise? Wow. Seriously bizarre. You think you're a mind-reader? And the first part of your post is absolute delusional crap and completely ignoring what I said.

Anyway, I'll repeat: please take what I said to prayer. God uses the people around us to give us input, and when the consensus on you (of people who have spoken on the subject) is 100% in agreement, that's a pretty strong indicator. Please take it to God in prayer, and to the saints if that's helpful to you (although I, too, am a saint, according to the Bible), and to some wise counselors (my Mom has a wonderful priest, I hope you know some good ones too, I'm sure there are many). I wish you well.

Will you do this?

Rian
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Rian » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:27 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:51 am
I know it's uncomfortable when I call people out, and back into corners. But, blaming me for why discussions go south is counter-productive.
Delusional, and nothing to do with what I wrote. Absolutely NOTHING. Please get some help. Please talk to some counselors at your church.

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:07 am

Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:You've claimed this before, yet they, including you, have sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions with anyway. And, if it's 100%, or "98.8%" impossible to have a real discussion with me, then why have you kept trying when those odds aren't in your favor?
I keep trying because I value people. But I have a family to love and serve and have fun with, and a serious health issue to manage (and I'm having insurance issues right now!), and sometimes I need to stop trying with you, get other things done, and get some strength back.
Despite your accusations I'm rude, and it's almost impossible to have a real discussion with me, you've sought me out to initiate, or participate in discussions anyway. And, when you aren't using me as an excuse to bow out of them, it's your personal life off the forum. Your "value" for me doesn't replace, or justify the amount of my time (and yours) you've wasted on this forum. Now, you can make up for it by re-engaging in our unfinished discussions, and only if you plan on playing fair and following through. If you don't, it's no skin off my nose.

Additionally, I extend to the LORD sincere prayers for peace, love, relief, and health of the body/soul in your behalf.
Claire wrote:
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:It appears as if you want to argue against my beliefs, but also play the victim to "the big, bad bully, Claire", using me as the scapegoat when any real substance in your argument has run dry. This allows you to extricate yourself from the debate, while simultaneously saving face, and taking a shot at me personally.
Your assessment of me is 100% wrong, but I doubt if you'll let yourself believe that.
What I've described is how it appears, so I don't see a reason to believe otherwise.
Rian wrote:So the actual person who is thinking the thoughts and telling you that you got them wrong is not even the tiniest reason for you to believe otherwise? Wow. Seriously bizarre. You think you're a mind-reader?
No, it's not even the tiniest reason, because you could be in denial, or lying. No, I can't read your mind, but I can read your posts, and what I've described is how it appears. Perhaps you're the one who thinks you can read minds, since you say I'm nearly impossible to have a real discussion with, even though I know I'm not. Why doesn't my disagreement with your characterization of me automatically make me right? Ah, because debates don't work like that, nor does self-assessment.
Rian wrote:
Claire wrote:I know it's uncomfortable when I call people out, and back into corners. But, blaming me for why discussions go south is counter-productive.
Delusional, and nothing to do with what I wrote. Absolutely NOTHING.
Because it refers to your/other's claim discussions with me are nearly impossible?
Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:Please pray about why everyone on this board and the past board, who has voiced an opinion about you, has said that you're impossible to talk with. I'm serious, and don't mean this as an insult. You really have a problem. When the opinion about you is 100% in agreement about this, I think it would be wise to take it to God in prayer, and to some wise friends for counsel.
Please take what I said to prayer. God uses the people around us to give us input, and when the consensus on you (of people who have spoken on the subject) is 100% in agreement, that's a pretty strong indicator. Please take it to God in prayer, and to the saints if that's helpful to you (although I, too, am a saint, according to the Bible), and to some wise counselors (my Mom has a wonderful priest, I hope you know some good ones too, I'm sure there are many). I wish you well.
Anyway, I'll repeat: please take what I said to prayer. God uses the people around us to give us input, and when the consensus on you (of people who have spoken on the subject) is 100% in agreement, that's a pretty strong indicator. Please take it to God in prayer, and to the saints if that's helpful to you (although I, too, am a saint, according to the Bible), and to some wise counselors (my Mom has a wonderful priest, I hope you know some good ones too, I'm sure there are many). I wish you well.

Will you do this?
This blame game you're playing is boring to watch.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: Mary, Mother of God

Post by Claire » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:32 pm

Chapabel, you've argued the following:
Chapabel wrote:Adam is credited with passing sin onto all people even though Eve was the first person to sin:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The only logical conclusion is that our sin nature is passed on to us through our fathers.
That's not the only logical conclusion because: i) that passage doesn't explicitly say "Adam", and ii) the word "man" doesn't always refer to the male sex when used. It's also about the same as the modern day word “person”, and can refer to the human race, as well as gender neutral.

Eve was the first to sin, therefore she's responsible for why sin entered the world, not Adam. No, it doesn't mean the inheritance of original sin ONLY comes from her/women. To say that would be to ignore the offense Adam committed, and make his involvement meaningless. As for whom human beings inherit original sin from, unless preserved by God, it's Eve and Adam because they BOTH committed an offense against Him.
Chapabel wrote:The only way Mary could have been born sinless would require God to be her Father as well.
God the Father is Mary's spiritual Father, for He's the Creator of Her soul.

In Lk. 1:28, Gabriel recognized Mary as being "full of Grace". The "g" is capitalized, so the meaning of the word is significant. The Grace of God gives light and knowledge, but original sin, and the mortal one, removes Grace. If Mary had a will to sin, and actively committed sins, then She couldn't have been full of Grace at the same time.

Additionally, I suggest you read Ex. 25. There's parallels between the ark of the covenant and Mary, and the ten commandments and Jesus. God desired the creation of a perfect ark to contain His written word. So, why would He create an imperfect ark to contain His word made flesh?

Is. 7:14 is a prophecy of Christ's virgin birth (see also Mt. 1:23 & Lk. 1:27). In Lk. 1:31, it's AFTER Mary is espoused to Joseph that Gabriel tells Her She will conceive a son, and She asks: "How shall this be done, because I know not man?". That question doesn't make sense unless She had already taken a vow of virginity. And, notice Her response wasn't "How shall this be done, because I have not yet known man".

The term "virgin" doesn't only refer to an individual who abstains from sexual intercourse. It can also be used to describe someone who is ''inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity", and "an absolutely chaste young woman". One of the definitions of "chaste" is "pure in thought and act".

For reasons explained, I would argue the aforementioned Bible passages can support God the Father having created and preserved Mary's soul from inheriting original sin, and Her being a perpetual virgin in thought/act (and She maintained that immaculate state by Her natural, good faithful will).
Chapabel wrote:Nothing in the Bible teaches Mary was sinless.
You've also acknowledged the Bible isn't a complete biography of Jesus, nor His family and friends for that matter. So, why completely rule out the idea Mary was created free from sin?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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