Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

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Beltane77
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Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by Beltane77 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:11 pm

(Apologies - I'm way behind the rest of y'all in listening to the podcasts, and just heard ep 25. My guess is that this was hashed out years ago, before the original forum crashed, but one thing stood out that deserved comment.)

In the episode, Norton asserted that - even if it's hard to swallow that his god didn't intervene to save Jessica Lunsford from kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder by burial alive - at least in the Christian worldview the perpetrator would be guaranteed to receive ultimate justice. "I know that justice will prevail. Maybe not in this life, but at the very least in the life to come."

Emery was totally focused on the Question of Evil inherent in G-d's failure to step in, and never addressed Norton's repeated assertions that his god would guarantee ultimate justice.

The gaping problem there is what happens if her abductor/murderer "put his faith in Christ" while in prison. Where's the Christian justice there? He spends eternity in paradise. Maybe he and Jessica can have tea in heaven. At least his victim was a child, whom Christians seem to believe get free tickets to heaven. Had his victim been a good-natured, kindly non-believer, the victim would be eternally tortured while the killer meets an infinite reward.

Sorry, just spent the last 20 minutes hollering at Emery to bring that up while walking my dog and listening to the podcast. Since he probably couldn't hear me there, I'm venting here. :-)

BTW, another complication is that John Couey, Jessica's murderer, was found to have an IQ around the level of mental retardation. We could certainly imagine a god capable of sorting out the right and wrong of imposing justice in such a situation, but the Bible gives absolutely no hope that YHWH's simplistic bask-or-burn dichotomy would handle it.

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SEG
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by SEG » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:18 am

Beltane77 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:11 pm
(Apologies - I'm way behind the rest of y'all in listening to the podcasts, and just heard ep 25. My guess is that this was hashed out years ago, before the original forum crashed, but one thing stood out that deserved comment.)

In the episode, Norton asserted that - even if it's hard to swallow that his god didn't intervene to save Jessica Lunsford from kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder by burial alive - at least in the Christian worldview the perpetrator would be guaranteed to receive ultimate justice. "I know that justice will prevail. Maybe not in this life, but at the very least in the life to come."

Emery was totally focused on the Question of Evil inherent in G-d's failure to step in, and never addressed Norton's repeated assertions that his god would guarantee ultimate justice.

The gaping problem there is what happens if her abductor/murderer "put his faith in Christ" while in prison. Where's the Christian justice there? He spends eternity in paradise. Maybe he and Jessica can have tea in heaven. At least his victim was a child, whom Christians seem to believe get free tickets to heaven. Had his victim been a good-natured, kindly non-believer, the victim would be eternally tortured while the killer meets an infinite reward.

Sorry, just spent the last 20 minutes hollering at Emery to bring that up while walking my dog and listening to the podcast. Since he probably couldn't hear me there, I'm venting here. :-)

BTW, another complication is that John Couey, Jessica's murderer, was found to have an IQ around the level of mental retardation. We could certainly imagine a god capable of sorting out the right and wrong of imposing justice in such a situation, but the Bible gives absolutely no hope that YHWH's simplistic bask-or-burn dichotomy would handle it.
No, I agree and that means that morals are subjective. Can I ask you why you don't put the "o" in God? Maybe simply because you are Jewish?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Beltane77
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by Beltane77 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:12 am

No, just playing with Judeo-Christian traditions by writing God and Yahweh without their vowels. Wouldn't want anybody to have to bury a copy of my posts to keep from erasing the name of a deity. ;-)

Claire
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by Claire » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:46 am

Beltane77 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:11 pm
Emery was totally focused on the Question of Evil inherent in G-d's failure to step in, and never addressed Norton's repeated assertions that his god would guarantee ultimate justice.

The gaping problem there is what happens if her abductor/murderer "put his faith in Christ" while in prison. Where's the Christian justice there? He spends eternity in paradise. Maybe he and Jessica can have tea in heaven. At least his victim was a child, whom Christians seem to believe get free tickets to heaven. Had his victim been a good-natured, kindly non-believer, the victim would be eternally tortured while the killer meets an infinite reward.
God did not prevent the kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of Jessica Lunsford caused by John Couley. Nor did He prevent the arrest, torture, and murder of God the Son Himself caused by Judas Iscariot. Could God have hindered all these deeds? Yes. But, then the Lord would have put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is free will. Human beings are allowed the capability to either commit moral or immoral actions, of various degrees, of our own free will. Only God knows the circumstance and intention behind every individual's thought and action. Humans can't and therefore our idea of justice is often flawed.

If one is of the world they would judge people like Judas and John as the world judges, not as God does. They'd see men worthy of receiving the same evil, or worse, that they bestowed on others, and unworthy of forgiveness and redemption, despite any seemingly sincere remorse they might display. But, God loves human beings, and He's ready to forgive, because He considers each individual worthy of redemption, regardless of our proneness to sin.

The Lord commands that all be charitable towards one's self and others, including our enemies (1 John 4:7-8/Luke 6:27-36), for example repenting and forgiving, for doing so covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8), and if one perseveres in charity until the end they'll be saved, and enter the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 24:12-13/Matthew 7:21), otherwise abideth in death (1 John 3:14).

People make good and bad choices. John committed immoralities while apparently having had an IQ around the level of mental retardation. Yet, supposedly he's expressed remorse for what he had done to Jessica in particular, hopefully other things too, and if he was sincere in that, as well as in wanting forgiveness, God would've forgiven him, but he still died in a sinful state. So, he most likely would've visited Purgatory first, and if so, may still be there, before entering Heaven. Even Judas was not excluded from receiving the gift of forgiveness by God had he, through his own will, allowed for that to happen.

Children who die and haven't actively sinned don't need to visit Purgatory first, so they go immediately to Heaven. Had Jessica died a non-religious adult, it doesn't mean she'd currently be spending eternal life in Hell.
Last edited by Claire on Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

captain howdy
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by captain howdy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:48 am

Beltane77 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:12 am
No, just playing with Judeo-Christian traditions by writing God and Yahweh without their vowels. Wouldn't want anybody to have to bury a copy of my posts to keep from erasing the name of a deity. ;-)
Welcome aboard Beltrane! captain howdy, one of the staff atheists. I don't think any of the believers here would do something as nit-picky as that. They like arguing religion, we like arguing religion, so we argue religion.

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SEG
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by SEG » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:46 am
God did not prevent the kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of Jessica Lunsford caused by John Couley.
No, but a real god that actually works would.
Children who die and haven't actively sinned
How could a child sin? Would you remind a parent that has had a child die that they were going to hell?
Had Jessica died a non-religious adult, it doesn't mean she'd currently be spending eternal life in Hell.
Correct, she would be dead!
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by Claire » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:23 pm

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:God did not prevent the kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of Jessica Lunsford caused by John Couley.
No, but a real god that actually works would.
As I said, if God had prevented it then He would've put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is free will.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Children who die and haven't actively sinned don't need to visit Purgatory first, so they go immediately to Heaven.
How could a child sin? Would you remind a parent that has had a child die that they were going to hell?
Babies don't actively sin which is why after physical death they go immediately to Heaven. Older children can be capable of lying, stealing, murdering, etc. But, that doesn't mean after physical death they go immediately to Hell. There's also Purgatory which is a temporary dwelling place where individuals go prior to Heaven.

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SEG
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by SEG » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:32 pm

Don't forget Valhalla.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by SEG » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:57 am

Claire wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:23 pm

As I said, if God had prevented it then He would've put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is free will.
Omnipotent gods don't want for anything.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Humanguy
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Re: Ep 25, "Guardian Angels" and justice

Post by Humanguy » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:21 am

SEG wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:57 am
Claire wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:23 pm

As I said, if God had prevented it then He would've put disorder into His own ordered thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is free will.
Omnipotent gods don't want for anything.
That.

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