What Happened To The Bodies?

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SEG
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What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:58 pm

This question was asked in Carrier's OTHOJ, but I think it deserves its own thread. What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?

The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimithea, but he vanished too.

As did members of Jesus' family. What happened to his sister's and brothers? What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:44 pm

This thread topic question was asked in Carrier's OTHOJ, but I think it deserves its own thread. What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?

The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.

As did members of Jesus' family. What happened to his sister's and brothers? What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?

Where the hell was Arimathea anyway? This wiki entry on the subject is interesting:
According to John Loftus the name Arimathea can be translated as “Best Disciple Town”. Loftus claims there is no textual evidence for the town outside the gospels, and no archaeological evidence exists as well. He concludes that this means that the town must be imaginary. This explains why Luke 23:51 calls it a “Jewish town” since no one had ever heard of it before.
It seems that the only reasonable explanation to the abrupt ending to all these stories was just that. They were only stories and not worthy of further investigation, as the main theological stories had already been told. These were never meant to be taken as historical accounts of events that had actually happened.

It is also interesting that C.S. Lewis or other apologists (even our own smitten Og) never bring this up.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Rian
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Rian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:13 pm

SEG wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:44 pm
This thread topic question was asked in Carrier's OTHOJ, but I think it deserves its own thread. What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?
Well, for one thing, they didn't have the internet or cell phones or even regular phones! I don't see how that information would get out that quickly.
The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.
Wouldn't you? And I don't see why that story would need to be told.
As did members of Jesus' family. What happened to his sister's and brothers? What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Same thing - that isn't the point of the NT.
Where the hell was Arimathea anyway? This wiki entry on the subject is interesting:
According to John Loftus the name Arimathea can be translated as “Best Disciple Town”. Loftus claims there is no textual evidence for the town outside the gospels, and no archaeological evidence exists as well. He concludes that this means that the town must be imaginary. This explains why Luke 23:51 calls it a “Jewish town” since no one had ever heard of it before.
No Wiki, please!
It seems that the only reasonable explanation to the abrupt ending to all these stories was just that. They were only stories and not worthy of further investigation, as the main theological stories had already been told. These were never meant to be taken as historical accounts of events that had actually happened.
Historical accounts have a focus. They don't tell everything about everybody.
It is also interesting that C.S. Lewis or other apologists (even our own smitten Og) never bring this up.
I think because it isn't a very reasonable objection, frankly.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:36 am

SEG wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:44 pm
This thread topic question was asked in Carrier's OTHOJ, but I think it deserves its own thread. What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?
Rian wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:13 pm
Well, for one thing, they didn't have the internet or cell phones or even regular phones! I don't see how that information would get out that quickly.
I don't think that the Romans would have had any trouble tracking down escaped insurrectionists or rebels that were whipping up support in front of crowds. Word of mouth communications would have quickly brought attention to something outrageous like this.
The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.
Wouldn't you? And I don't see why that story would need to be told.
What would he have to hide, he didn't do anything wrong? If the Romans had taken steps to place an armed guard on the tomb, then it would make sense that they would have taken some action once they discovered that their guarded tomb was now empty. Stories like this do need to be told if they seek credibility. Other much more fantastic stories like the zombie saints rising from their graves and walking into the city and Herod killing all the children under 2 years of age are left hanging in the NT and not told in secular history too, so maybe it's not that surprising. Btw, did you ever wonder how JTB escaped the massacre?
As did members of Jesus' family. What happened to his sister's and brothers? What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Same thing - that isn't the point of the NT.
No, it doesn't go anywhere theologically.
Where the hell was Arimathea anyway? This wiki entry on the subject is interesting:
According to John Loftus the name Arimathea can be translated as “Best Disciple Town”. Loftus claims there is no textual evidence for the town outside the gospels, and no archaeological evidence exists as well. He concludes that this means that the town must be imaginary. This explains why Luke 23:51 calls it a “Jewish town” since no one had ever heard of it before.
No Wiki, please!
Which sources outside of the Bible do you suggest? Do you know of any sources that explain where it was?
It seems that the only reasonable explanation to the abrupt ending to all these stories was just that. They were only stories and not worthy of further investigation, as the main theological stories had already been told. These were never meant to be taken as historical accounts of events that had actually happened.
Historical accounts have a focus. They don't tell everything about everybody.
True, but if you consider that the Bible is to be taken as historically correct, it leaves out a lot of information once the main story is told. I think the history has taken a back seat to theology, allegory and metaphor.
It is also interesting that C.S. Lewis or other apologists (even our own smitten Og) never bring this up.
I think because it isn't a very reasonable objection, frankly.
Only if you aren't that concerned with historical correctness.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:58 am

SEG wrote:What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?
The guards of Jesus's tomb witnessed the following: a meteor clash on the closure of the Sepulchre, an angel, a bright light emerge from the tomb, and no body inside, etc. They relayed to the chief priests what had happened, then were paid to lie saying Jesus's body was stolen by His disciples.

And, there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees seeking followers of Jesus, especially those who claimed He had resurrected, to imprison/kill them. Word of this spread, so out of fear for their lives, people were careful when speaking of His resurrection, where He'd been spotted, or where they knew He'd be.
SEG wrote:The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.
After Jesus's death, and talk of His resurrection, Joseph heard there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees who were seeking to imprison/kill followers of Jesus. So, he would've been avoiding any untrustworthy chief priests or Romans, etc.
SEG wrote:Where the hell was Arimathea anyway?
Arimathea was a mountainous town that sloped to the plain. Joseph's estate was in the plain, towards the Mediterranean sea, which stretched along the mountain, particularly towards Jerusalem along the road that ran from the capital to Arimathea, and linked that town to Joppa.
SEG wrote:What happened to his sister's and brothers?
Jesus didn't have biological siblings.
SEG wrote:What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Joseph died in Nazareth -- you can read about it here.
Mary's body and soul was assumed into Heaven while She was alive -- you can read about it here.
Last edited by Claire on Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:47 am

Claire wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:58 am
The guards of Jesus's tomb witnessed the following: a meteor clash on the closure of the Sepulchre, an angel, a bright light emerge from the tomb, and no body inside, etc. They relayed to the chief priests what had happened, then were paid to lie saying Jesus's body was stolen by His disciples.
NO, I meant what really happened historically from a valid contemporaneous source.
And, there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees seeking followers of Jesus, especially those who claimed He had resurrected, to imprison/kill them. Word of this spread, so out of fear for their lives, people were careful when speaking of His resurrection, where He'd been spotted, or where they knew He'd be.
Ditto.
SEG wrote:The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.
After Jesus's death, and talk of His resurrection, Joseph had heard there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees who were seeking to imprison/kill followers of Jesus. So, he would've been avoiding any untrustworthy chief priests or Romans, etc.
There's no evidence that he was a follower of Jesus.
SEG wrote:Where the hell was Arimathea anyway?
Arimathea was a mountainous town that sloped to the plain. Joseph's estate was in the plain, towards the Mediterranean sea, which stretched along the mountain, particularly towards Jerusalem along the road that ran from the capitol to Arimathea, and linked that town to Joppa.
Where's your valid source for that? Where does it appear anywhere on ancient maps of the time?
SEG wrote:What happened to his sister's and brothers?
Jesus didn't have biological siblings.
Agreed.
SEG wrote:What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Joseph died in Nazareth -- you can read about it here.
Mary's body and soul was assumed into Heaven while She was alive -- you can read about it here.
I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:14 pm

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:What happened to the Roman investigation of the missing body of Jesus, a man executed for treason? If Jesus went missing from his tomb and started popping up in several places, (including a crowd of 500), why weren't the Romans right on to it?
The guards of Jesus's tomb witnessed the following: a meteor clash on the closure of the Sepulchre, an angel, a bright light emerge from the tomb, and no body inside, etc. They relayed to the chief priests what happened, then were paid to lie saying Jesus's body was stolen by His disciples.

And, there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees seeking followers of Jesus, especially those who claimed He had resurrected, to imprison/kill them. Word of this spread, so out of fear for their lives, people were careful when speaking of His resurrection, where He'd been spotted, or where they knew He'd be.
NO, I meant what really happened historically from a valid contemporaneous source.
I'm aware you dismiss Biblical writers/Maria Valtorta as valid sources, but there isn't anything to disprove them on this point, and not every valid source will have universal acceptance.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:The first person to chase up would be Joseph of Arimathea, the alleged owner of the tomb. According to all four canonical gospels, he was the man who assumed responsibility for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. He would be the chief witness and person of interest to the Roman authorities, but he vanished too.
After Jesus's death, and talk of His resurrection, Joseph heard there were leaders of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees who were seeking to imprison/kill followers of Jesus. So, he would've been avoiding any untrustworthy chief priests or Romans, etc.
There's no evidence that he was a follower of Jesus.
Matthew 27:57 and John 19:38.
SEG wrote:If the Romans had taken steps to place an armed guard on the tomb, then it would make sense that they would have taken some action once they discovered that their guarded tomb was now empty. Stories like this do need to be told if they seek credibility.
According to the Gospel of Nicodemus, when the Jews who were seeking followers of Jesus discovered it was Joseph who begged for, and buried His body, they sought him out. When Joseph was confronted, he defended his actions, and accused them of being unjust in theirs, so he was seized and brought before the chief priests, interrogated, then imprisoned in a windowless, sealed chamber awaiting death, to which he avoided by miraculous escape. This event is what prompted a guard to testify before the chief priests his experience at Jesus's sepulchre, then led to him and the other guards being interrogated, and paid to lie (Matthew 28:11-15).
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Where the hell was Arimathea anyway?
Arimathea was a mountainous town that sloped to the plain. Joseph's estate was in the plain, towards the Mediterranean sea, which stretched along the mountain, particularly towards Jerusalem along the road that ran from the capital to Arimathea, and linked that town to Joppa.
Where's your valid source for that? Where does it appear anywhere on ancient maps of the time?
While the precise location of Arimathea is currently uncertain, based on the aforementioned details, and others within Poem of the Man-God, it's placed 12 miles almost directly north of Jerusalem, near the Samaritan border, just west of Gophena.

My source is Maria Valtorta who I accept as valid, and I'm aware you do not, but there isn't anything to disprove her on this point, and not every valid source will have universal acceptance.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:What happened to his mother and father, where and how did they die? What happened to all these bodies?
Joseph died in Nazareth -- you can read about it here.
Mary's body and soul was assumed into Heaven while She was alive -- you can read about it here.
I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support those accounts are dreams or fictional stories?

Claire
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:31 pm

SEG wrote:Stories like this do need to be told if they seek credibility. Other much more fantastic stories like the zombie saints rising from their graves and walking into the city, and Herod killing all the children under 2 years of age are left hanging in the NT and not told in secular history too, so maybe it's not that surprising.
An argument from silence is the weakest form of argumentation you can use.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Regarding the massacre in Bethlehem, Herod didn't order the killing of "all the children" under 2 years of age, only the males (Matthew 2:16-18). According to Maria Valtorta, the accurate number of babies killed was thirty-two, of which eighteen were in Bethlehem, and fourteen in the nearby country. Six of the thirty-two were baby girls because the hired killers couldn't tell them apart from the baby boys due to similar clothing, the darkness, and their haste to kill. Additionally, there were deaths of adults, who died either defending their children, or killing themselves out of grief. You can read her account of this in full here.

As for the resurrection of the dead after Jesus's death (Matthew 27:52-53), you can read Maria Valtorta's account of this in full here.
SEG wrote:Btw, did you ever wonder how JTB escaped the massacre?
An angel warned Joseph that Herod would seek to kill Jesus, and instructed him to take Mary and Jesus out of Bethlehem, and flee to Egypt. So, they left prior to the massacre in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:13), and you can read Maria Valtorta's account of this in full here.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:31 pm

"What verifiable evidence do you have to support those accounts are dreams or fictional stories?" MV is NOT verifiable evidence. Wildly fictional stories can't be supported with even more wildly fictional, crazy stories.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:24 am

SEG wrote:I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support your claim these stories are dreams or fiction?
SEG wrote:MV is NOT verifiable evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support this claim?

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