What Happened To The Bodies?

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm

Claire wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:24 am
SEG wrote:I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support your claim these stories are dreams or fiction?
SEG wrote:MV is NOT verifiable evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support this claim?
Don't try and shift the burden of proof. The person making the assertions carries the burden, as anyone can make up silly stories. You should know this by now.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:51 pm

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support your claim these stories are dreams or fiction?
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:MV is NOT verifiable evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support this claim?
SEG wrote:Don't try and shift the burden of proof. The person making the assertions carries the burden, as anyone can make up silly stories. You should know this by now.
You made the aforementioned claims.
Step 2: follow up with evidence.
Step 3: present reasoning for why the evidence supports your claims.

Are you able to do this?

Claire
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:31 am

.
Last edited by Claire on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:19 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:51 pm
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:I'm not interested in dreams or fictional stories, I'm looking for verifiable historical evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support your claim these stories are dreams or fiction?
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:MV is NOT verifiable evidence.
What verifiable evidence do you have to support this claim?
SEG wrote:Don't try and shift the burden of proof. The person making the assertions carries the burden, as anyone can make up silly stories. You should know this by now.
You made the aforementioned claims.
Step 2: follow up with evidence.
Step 3: present reasoning for why the evidence supports your claims.

Are you able to do this?
What claims did I assert?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:54 pm

SEG wrote:What claims did I assert?
You've claimed the aforementioned stories are dreams/fiction.
You've claimed Maria Valtorta isn't verifiable evidence.

Step 1: Make claim(s) ✓

Next:
Step 2: Follow up with evidence
Step 3: Present reasoning for why the evidence supports the claims

Are you able to do this?

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SEG
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:02 am

Claire wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:54 pm
SEG wrote:What claims did I assert?
You've claimed the aforementioned stories are dreams/fiction.
You've claimed Maria Valtorta isn't verifiable evidence.

Step 1: Make claim(s) ✓

Next:
Step 2: Follow up with evidence
Step 3: Present reasoning for why the evidence supports the claims

Are you able to do this?
No, because silly unfalsifiable claims are just that. If someone wrote about invisible gremlins inhabiting the rings of Saturn, how would you disprove that? MV is in exactly the same category until she produces better evidence.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:What claims did I assert?
You've claimed the aforementioned stories are dreams/fiction.
You've claimed Maria Valtorta isn't verifiable evidence.

Step 1: Make claim(s) ✓

Next:
Step 2: Follow up with evidence
Step 3: Present reasoning for why the evidence supports the claims

Are you able to do this?
No, because silly unfalsifiable claims are just that. If someone wrote about invisible gremlins inhabiting the rings of Saturn, how would you disprove that? MV is in exactly the same category until she produces better evidence.
You'ved claimed Maria Valtorta is an uncredible source not only because of the content of her writings, but because she's crazy. I know you haven't read any of her Work, or researched her as a person. You just assumed and assert all her content is unfalsifiable, and that's she's crazy, without evidence or reasoning.

You could comb through her Work of 10,000 pages to try and find the following: signifiers in her grammar and syntax, perhaps repetition of certain phrases, disjointed thoughts, etc, that may show possible mental illness, errors in descriptions of hundreds of ancient geographical palestinian sites, natural topography of Palestine from numerous locations, information about the outside pagan world of that day, i.e. people, places, customs, Greek and Roman mythology, and so on. You could read about her mental/physical state during the years of her writing.

All you've done though is make assumptions and assertions, and tack on more assumptions and assertions, all without any evidence or reasoning. You may reject the evidence and reasoning for my claims, but at least I present something rather than nothing.

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:02 am

Claire wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 am
You may reject the evidence and reasoning for my claims, but at least I present something rather than nothing.
This "Something" is much worse than nothing. This is just wild fiction talking about another wild fiction with zero supportable evidence.

If I had similar dreams that the Jesus story was all made up, would you believe me? If not, why not?

It's a pity for you that your own Pope doesn't think much of MV's writings.
Here is my evidence it's rubbish. From Wiki:
The Holy See placed the work on the Index of Prohibited Books and the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano accompanied publication of this decree with an article that called the book a badly fictionalized life of Jesus.
Regarding content
According to Bishop Roman Danylak, among those impressed by the work at the Vatican was Pope Pius XII's confessor, Father (later Cardinal) Augustin Bea, who later wrote that he found the parts of the work that he had read "not only interesting and pleasing, but truly edifying".[21] An article in The Wanderer, which describes the books as "poorly written prose, filled with imagined conversations between Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the Apostles that can be, most charitably, described as banal", says that Bea was a consultor of the Holy Office at the time it condemned the book, as was Dominican theologian Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange.[22] The article further lists seven reasons why the Poem of the Man-God was condemned:

The book contains a fraudulent imprimatur, allegedly bestowed by Pope Pius XII, and has no legitimate imprimatur, which it must have.
The Jesus and Mary are in stark contrast to the Gospels. "Jesus speaks the maximum like a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of God, or to share lessons in theology with the same terms used by a modern professor . . . (and) the Most Holy Virgin speaks as abundantly as a modern propagandist."
"Some passages are rather risque and record some descriptions and some scenes like modern novels . . . the reading of such passages as those quoted, only with difficulty could be finished without danger of spiritual damage.
There are "many historical, geographical, and other blunders.
There are numerous theological errors in the book, beginning with what "Jesus says about Eve's sin."
"The work would have merited a condemnation . . . if nothing else, for reasons of irreverence."
The authoress claims revelation, and the Church decided it was not revelation.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by Claire » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:00 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:You'ved claimed Maria Valtorta is an uncredible source not only because of the content of her writings, but because she's crazy. I know you haven't read any of her Work, or researched her as a person. You just assumed and assert all her content is unfalsifiable, and that's she's crazy, without evidence or reasoning.

You could comb through her Work of 10,000 pages to try and find the following: signifiers in her grammar and syntax, perhaps repetition of certain phrases, disjointed thoughts, etc, that may show possible mental illness, errors in descriptions of hundreds of ancient geographical palestinian sites, natural topography of Palestine from numerous locations, information about the outside pagan world of that day, i.e. people, places, customs, Greek and Roman mythology, and so on. You could read about her mental/physical state during the years of her writing.

All you've done though is make assumptions and assertions, and tack on more assumptions and assertions, all without any evidence or reasoning. You may reject the evidence and reasoning for my claims, but at least I present something rather than nothing.
This "Something" is much worse than nothing. This is just wild fiction talking about another wild fiction with zero supportable evidence.

It's a pity for you that your own Pope doesn't think much of MV's writings.
Here is my evidence it's rubbish. From Wiki:
The Holy See placed the work on the Index of Prohibited Books and the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano accompanied publication of this decree with an article that called the book a badly fictionalized life of Jesus.

Regarding content
According to Bishop Roman Danylak, among those impressed by the work at the Vatican was Pope Pius XII's confessor, Father (later Cardinal) Augustin Bea, who later wrote that he found the parts of the work that he had read "not only interesting and pleasing, but truly edifying".[21] An article in The Wanderer, which describes the books as "poorly written prose, filled with imagined conversations between Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the Apostles that can be, most charitably, described as banal", says that Bea was a consultor of the Holy Office at the time it condemned the book, as was Dominican theologian Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange.[22] The article further lists seven reasons why the Poem of the Man-God was condemned:

The book contains a fraudulent imprimatur, allegedly bestowed by Pope Pius XII, and has no legitimate imprimatur, which it must have.
The Jesus and Mary are in stark contrast to the Gospels. "Jesus speaks the maximum like a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of God, or to share lessons in theology with the same terms used by a modern professor . . . (and) the Most Holy Virgin speaks as abundantly as a modern propagandist."
"Some passages are rather risque and record some descriptions and some scenes like modern novels . . . the reading of such passages as those quoted, only with difficulty could be finished without danger of spiritual damage.
There are "many historical, geographical, and other blunders.
There are numerous theological errors in the book, beginning with what "Jesus says about Eve's sin."
"The work would have merited a condemnation . . . if nothing else, for reasons of irreverence."
The authoress claims revelation, and the Church decided it was not revelation.
That's already been refuted here. Anything else? And, what evidence is there to support your claim Maria Valtorta was crazy?
SEG wrote:If I had similar dreams that the Jesus story was all made up, would you believe me? If not, why not?
What do you mean by similar dreams?

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SEG
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Re: What Happened To The Bodies?

Post by SEG » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:11 pm

Claire wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:00 am
Anything else? And, what evidence is there to support your claim Maria Valtorta was crazy?
This https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poem_of_the_Man-God :
According to Father Mitch Pacwa, S.J., "the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the evangelists, who portray Jesus as 'humble, reserved; His discourses are lean, incisive.' In addition, Pacwa writes that the poem has "'many historical, geographical and other blunders.' For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195, 223), centuries before screws existed."
I didn't say she was crazy, did I?
SEG wrote:If I had similar dreams that the Jesus story was all made up, would you believe me? If not, why not?
What do you mean by similar dreams?
[/quote]
Her "revelations"
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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