Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

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SEG
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Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by SEG » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:18 pm

Truth or fiction Christians?
Can mediums really speak to the dead, just like it says here in your Bible?
1 Samuel 28:3-20 New International Version (NIV)
Saul and the Medium at Endor
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.


15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
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Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:57 am

SEG, you again fall into the logic trap of seeing a stated supernatural event and asking if it occurs naturally, which is a straw man.

We have three possible interpretations of the Witch of Endor, logically speaking:
1. That she was a fraud, and that on seeing Samuel by a special miracle of God, she knew Saul to be other than her normal victim;
2. That she usually called up a demon who would pretend to be the deceased, and on seeing Samuel, etc.;
3. She actually called up the spirits of the dead.

In light of Hebrews 8:27 (It is for man once to die, and after this, the judgment) we can rule out 3. as internally inconsistent.

As to the other two, the only reason for you to reject them is that you don't believe in supernatural things. This becomes a tautology for you:

SEG does not believe in the supernatural, and concludes that any reference to the supernatural is a lie, therefore he does not believe in the supernatural.

So you have no logical reason to ask this question.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by SEG » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:41 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:57 am

We have three possible interpretations of the Witch of Endor, logically speaking:
1. That she was a fraud, and that on seeing Samuel by a special miracle of God, she knew Saul to be other than her normal victim;
2. That she usually called up a demon who would pretend to be the deceased, and on seeing Samuel, etc.;
3. She actually called up the spirits of the dead.

In light of Hebrews 8:27 (It is for man once to die, and after this, the judgment) we can rule out 3. as internally inconsistent.
It looks like you are struggling again to answer a simple question. Do you think it is truth or fiction? Staying on the fence is deceitful, you must have an opinion either way. Or if you truly don't know the truth of this passage, the honest response would be "I don't know".
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

User avatar
SEG
Posts: 1869
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by SEG » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:03 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:57 am
SEG does not believe in the supernatural, and concludes that any reference to the supernatural is a lie, therefore he does not believe in the supernatural.
Correct. Guess why? No supernatural event has ever been proven with verifiable evidence. If you have discovered something supernatural in your Bible, plenty of prizes are available if you can prove it to give alms to the poor.
So you have no logical reason to ask this question.
I have a very good reason to ask this question. I would like to know whether you seriously believe that a character of the Bible used a medium to actually converse with the dead, or whether you believe the story to be made up. I certainly don't believe this outlandish story, but I would like to know whether you do or not.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:16 am

SEG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:41 am
Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:57 am
We have three possible interpretations of the Witch of Endor, logically speaking:
1. That she was a fraud, and that on seeing Samuel by a special miracle of God, she knew Saul to be other than her normal victim;
2. That she usually called up a demon who would pretend to be the deceased, and on seeing Samuel, etc.;
3. She actually called up the spirits of the dead.

In light of Hebrews 8:27 (It is for man once to die, and after this, the judgment) we can rule out 3. as internally inconsistent.
It looks like you are struggling again to answer a simple question. Do you think it is truth or fiction? Staying on the fence is deceitful, you must have an opinion either way. Or if you truly don't know the truth of this passage, the honest response would be "I don't know".
Actually, "Staying on the fence" is what scientist do until there is sufficient information. For example, Scientists alternated between the "atomic theory" and the "infinite divisibility theory" until Ernst Rutherford's experiments confirmed the former and denied the latter. So were scientists prior to 1911 "Deceitful?"

I am willing to accept either 1. or 2. as a correct interpretation of the event. Either is possible according to my worldview, and the text does not distinguish which usually occurred. So I am in the position of a scientist in 1905 wrt infinite divisibilty versus an atomic model. Both make sense and fit the known facts.

I do believe that the follow things occurred:
1.) Saul consulted the woman and ordered her to call us Samuel;
2.) Samuel appeared (by divine fiat) and cursed Saul.

I strongly suspect that this is not what normally happened, both because of Hebrews 8:27 and because she was shocked when Samuel appeared.

But it does not change that you are merely, once again, failing to see the logic trap into which you have fallen.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:37 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:16 am
Actually, "Staying on the fence" is what scientist do until there is sufficient information. For example, Scientists alternated between the "atomic theory" and the "infinite divisibility theory" until Ernst Rutherford's experiments confirmed the former and denied the latter. So were scientists prior to 1911 "Deceitful?"
No, but that is a terrible analogy, which IS actually deceitful! You would be well aware that scientists aren't in the least "on the fence" about mediums communicating with the dead. You need to be aware of the context of what was stated in the text and not erect irrelevant straw man analogies.
I am willing to accept either 1. or 2. as a correct interpretation of the event. Either is possible according to my worldview, and the text does not distinguish which usually occurred. So I am in the position of a scientist in 1905 wrt infinite divisibilty versus an atomic model. Both make sense and fit the known facts.
How about the "known facts" that authors of that period frequently invented fictitious tales of the supernatural to impress their readers? I call you out on your gullibility for not even considering this option. How about the "known facts" that fake mediums frequently arranged scams around superstitious beliefs of the time? Just because this story appears in the NT, you automatically believe in it, however ridiculous it sounds to skeptics and pragmatic people like me. No matter what the tale presents, you try your best to make sense of it against all logic.
I do believe that the follow things occurred:
1.) Saul consulted the woman and ordered her to call us Samuel;
2.) Samuel appeared (by divine fiat) and cursed Saul.
This is what happens when dogmatist like you believes a priori assertions without any verifiable evidence.
I strongly suspect that this is not what normally happened, both because of Hebrews 8:27 and because she was shocked when Samuel appeared.
Ever noticed how magicians and con men appear shocked after their tricks? It's all part of the scam, and you fell for it - again.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Og3
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:41 am

Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by Og3 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:27 pm

SEG wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:37 am
Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:16 am
Actually, "Staying on the fence" is what scientist do until there is sufficient information. For example, Scientists alternated between the "atomic theory" and the "infinite divisibility theory" until Ernst Rutherford's experiments confirmed the former and denied the latter. So were scientists prior to 1911 "Deceitful?"
No, but that is a terrible analogy, which IS actually deceitful! You would be well aware that scientists aren't in the least "on the fence" about mediums communicating with the dead. You need to be aware of the context of what was stated in the text and not erect irrelevant straw man analogies.
The context is whether it is deceitful to be on the fence until there is sufficient information, and whether there is sufficient information to determine whether a Christian should believe that the Witch of Endor was in the habit of defrauding her customers or of introducing them to demons who defrauded them.

Nowhere did I say, imply, or suggest that "scientists" were addressing the question in their professional capacities, and as we have discussed before, science does not address spiritual things, therefore no scientist can comment on such a thing speaking as a scientist.

So you are either being forgetful or deceitful; I am neither.
I am willing to accept either 1. or 2. as a correct interpretation of the event. Either is possible according to my worldview, and the text does not distinguish which usually occurred. So I am in the position of a scientist in 1905 wrt infinite divisibilty versus an atomic model. Both make sense and fit the known facts.
How about the "known facts" that authors of that period frequently invented fictitious tales of the supernatural to impress their readers? I call you out on your gullibility for not even considering this option. How about the "known facts" that fake mediums frequently arranged scams around superstitious beliefs of the time? Just because this story appears in the NT, you automatically believe in it, however ridiculous it sounds to skeptics and pragmatic people like me. No matter what the tale presents, you try your best to make sense of it against all logic.
Actually, the witch of endor is in the OT, not the NT. And I believe that Saul consulted a witch; not necessarily that she normally produced spirits. And if she did, that does not contradict my worldview. Your accusation here is rife with ignoratio elenchi.
I do believe that the following things occurred:
1.) Saul consulted the woman and ordered her to call us Samuel;
2.) Samuel appeared (by divine fiat) and cursed Saul.
This is what happens when dogmatist like you believes a priori assertions without any verifiable evidence.
Given that the stated events are within my worldview, how is that a problem?

And would you care to explain your term "Dogmatist" or is this just some new pejorative you're trying on for size?
I strongly suspect that this is not what normally happened, both because of Hebrews 8:27 and because she was shocked when Samuel appeared.
Ever noticed how magicians and con men appear shocked after their tricks? It's all part of the scam, and you fell for it - again.
You need to read the story again -- had she actually expected Samuel to appear, she would not have done any such trick.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Saul Consults a Medium in the Bible

Post by SEG » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm

So I'll repeat my earlier question that you ignored. Do you think the story was true? Or is there insufficient evidence to make a call?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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