Christians studying the Bible...

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Og3
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Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:06 am

One of the false claims that anti-theists make is that Christians don't read their Bibles. The anti-theist typically takes an obscure verse, says something absurd about it, and then claims that Christians would reject the Bible if they were thinking people and had read that verse. Penn Gillette claims that reading the Bible made him an atheist, as one example; SEG's faith test thread is another.

So in the interest of generally debunking the theory that Christians don't read the Bible, let's discuss the portions of the Bible we are currently studying.

For example, I am currently teaching a six week (plus introduction) course on the Book of Hebrews. I will insert the materials here (which I am developing as I teach them). Thus far, we have held the intro and Lesson 1 portions, skipping next week for the holiday, and then resuming Wednesday after next for lesson 2.
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Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:19 am

The general outline and prominent points:

----------------------- snip ---------------------------------
A Study in Hebrews:
Why Jesus is better than everything else.

Introduction:
Two themes to observe as we go through: Better than, By Faith.

Who wrote this book, and why?
1. Paul? Barnabus? Another associate of Paul? Mr. Coffee? Joe Dimaggio? (Because He Brews)...
2. Christians in the first century were mostly Jewish (Hebrew) and were being persecuted by the Jews and the Romans. Becoming a Christian was an instant ticket to divorce, homelessness, starvation, and persecution. So was it worth it? Should we just go back to being Jews? This book was written to answer that question.

A. So you wanna go back to Egypt? Leeks and Onions?

B. Let’s take a quick look at an introductory video:
Bible Project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fNWTZZwgbs

LESSON ONE
Jesus is better than…
A. Angels
B. Moses

Lesson TWO
Jesus is better than Priests

Who was this Melchezidek guy?
What is a Priest?
How is Jesus better than them all?

LESSON THREE
Jesus is better than the Old Covenant
Galatians 2:14

LESSON FOUR
FAITH: What is it, and what do we do with it?

Lesson Five
By Faith! Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, and we’re just touching on the highlights…

LESSON SIX
Wrapping it all up, what do we take away from the book of Hebrews?
1. Jesus is better than anything else you’ve got in your life.
2. The Old covenant was good. The new covenant is perfect.
3. Jesus paid it all, and all to him I owe.
4. There is no turning back; what is there in anything else? Why do you seek the Living among the dead?
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Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 am

Intro - 20 Min. (abbreviated due to potluck preceding the kick-off) - 2 weeks ago --
-------------- snip -------------------

Hebrews Introduction:

So you wanna go back to Egypt…

Jesse: Hi, Bill.

Bill: Jesse, how’s it going?

Jesse: Not so good. This Christianity thing is costing me too much. I’m thinking of
giving it up and going back to Judaism.

Bill: But Jesse… In Judaism, God only spoke through prophets or angels. And Jesus is
better than angels!

Jesse: Yeah, I know… But I lost my dog, my car, my house, my wife, my family …
Every time I go to my parents’ house, they throw rocks at me. I saw my old rabbi on the street the other day. He tore his clothes and threw dirt in the air.

Bill: But Jesse… If you’re not under God’s grace, then you’re under the Law. And you
can’t keep the law. Jesus is better than the law.

Jesse: But in Judaism you just give your sacrifice to the priest. It’s a simple religion that
I can understand, Bill.

Bill: But Jesse… Jesus is better than the priests. He’s the ultimate High Priest.

Jesse: But Bill… In Judaism, it’s like a contract. A covenant. I do my part, and God
does His part, and everybody’s happy.

Bill: But Jesse… The covenant through Christ is better than the old covenant.

Jesse: Well how am I supposed to get through all this stuff going on around me?
Following Jesus is tough, Bill. It’s really cutting into my social life.

Bill: By faith. That’s how the men of old did it, and that’s how you can do it. By Faith.

Jesse: Also, I was kind of thinking that maybe we made a mistake by coming out of
bondage in Egypt. They had these leeks and onions down there…

--------- end -----

So we’re going to be looking at the book of Hebrews, and this book was written about a time in Christian history when people were starting to ask whether it was really worthwhile to follow Jesus. It was costing them things: Homes, families, jobs, even their lives. And the writer of Hebrews answer this question with two phrases that we will examine through this study: “Better Than” and “By Faith.”

In his sermon two weeks ago, Brother Manny brought a message about Elisha and how Elisha slaughtered his oxen, burned their yokes, and left his old life behind. The Christians in the first century were looking at this kind of decision: They left everything behind to follow Jesus, and they were starting to wonder if they should go back to the old ways. This book is the answer: Burn the yokes and slaughter the oxen. There is no turning back.

Jesus is better than angels.
Jesus is better than Moses.
Jesus is better than the priests and high priests.
Jesus is better than the Old Covenant.

By Faith – and what is faith, anyway? – We have a better way. Look at the ancients and how they followed God by faith.

Sometimes we make a decision and then wonder if we’ve gone the right way. Example: C. and Drop Forge. We have to look at the reasons we made the decision, and decide if those things are still true. And if so, then we need to have faith that we made the right choice.

2 Cor. 5:7, For we walk BY FAITH and not by sight.

Chances are that you’re not planning to go back to Judaism. But do you sometimes think that following Jesus is difficult? Costly? Makes people think poorly of you?

Is Jesus BETTER THAN what you were doing before you followed Jesus?
Are you walking BY FAITH in the rationality of that decision, instead of by the SIGHT of your current circumstance?

Questions, comments, war stories?

Extra Credit: How does the book of Hebrews tie in with Moses in the desert with the children of Israel? Would they have been better off going back to Egypt?
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Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:26 am

Lesson 1, last Wednesday. 60 minutes (went 70 min. with questions and discussion)
------- snip -------------

Hebrews, Lesson 1
Jesus Is Better Than the Angels; Better Than Moses.

Read Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

The Son is the fulfillment of God’s message to us. Everything that we need to know about God is contained in the message of Jesus. Right Hand – Symbol of Power. To sit at someone’s right hand is to be greatly favored and to be near His power, or to be the delegate of His power. cf. Matt 28:18, [Matt 28:18 KJV] 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus earthly work is done, and He now wields God’s own power. We will revisit next week when we talk about Jesus being better than the priests under the old covenant.

The Writer – I think it was Barnabas – assumes that you know about angels. So let’s jump to Heb. 2:2 : For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,…

Let’s think about angels for a moment. Angel means messenger, and an angel is a messenger of God. Messenger in the broadest sense, akin to an agent of God. When God sent a message through an angel it was meant to be obeyed, and angels have the power to make it happen. We sometimes see cartoons of angels as babies with wings, or we hear someone ask, “Doesn’t that baby just look angelic? Aren’t those children just perfect little angels?”

I always think, “No, they’re not scary enough.” (JRW) Angels are frightening. Daniel saw an angel, and immediately fell down as if he were dead. Angels announce themselves with phrases like, “Be not afraid.” In 2 Kings 19:35, Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead. One angel struck down an entire army. Angels are described as powerful creatures that are fearsome to behold.

But backing up into Hebrews 1:6-8 NASB, 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." 7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." 8 But of the Son [He says,] "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Angels: Big, Powerful, Frightening, Empowered-by-God, “Winds,” “A Flame of Fire.”
Jesus: Given all power, worshipped by angels, called “God” by God, reigns forever, has the Righteous Scepter of His kingdom. Scepter represents power to rule.

If angels must be obeyed, what about Jesus?

Hebrews 1:13, But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? The part that is in all capitals is a quotation from Psalms 110:1, “The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I have made thine enemies a footstool beneath thy feet.” We are going to talk about Psalm 110 more next week. You may remember this quotation: Jesus used it to confuse the Pharisees when they were trying to trap him. How can David’s son be David’s Lord? << Note on Capitals, QUOTES, LORD=HaShem=YHWH >>

[Heb 2:1-3 NASB] 1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away [from it.] 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

If angels are great, Jesus is greater. But wait -- There’s more:

[Heb 2:9-11 NASB]
9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, [namely,] Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one [Father;] for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

compare Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
compare John 1:3 By Him were all things made, and without Him was not anything made which was made.

The writer seems to be saying that Jesus is greater than the angels partly because He became a little lower than the angels, namely, human – compare Phil. 2:3-11 – and thus now that He sits at the right hand of the Father, he is not ashamed to call humans his brethren. If that did not blow your mind, you should read it again.

Hebrews 2:14, Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
15 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Angels are not your brothers. If you die today you are not going to become an angel. Jesus does not call the angels His brethren. But He calls you His brother. cf. Luke 8:21, But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Jesus is greater than angels. Angels are so scary they must be obeyed. Angels worship Jesus. Jesus calls you His brother if you hear the word of God and do it. Jesus died for you, not for angels. “He does not give help to angels.”

[Heb 2:17-18 NASB] 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

The writer finishes off with a warm-up for next week, talking about Jesus as the High Priest. But we’re not there yet, because Jesus is better than the law of Moses.

[Heb 3:2-6 NASB] 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6 but Christ [was faithful] as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

To the Jews, Moses was, and is, the symbol of the law. Moses was regarded as the greatest servant of God; the man who led his people out of bondage. Moses was faithful to his calling. But so was Jesus, and more so. Moses was a faithful servant, but Jesus is a faithful son. Moses serves in the house, Jesus is Lord of the house.

The writer draws a parallel with the people of Israel in the desert, Hebrews 3:11, AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’” We talked briefly last week about wanting to go back to Egypt. The children of Israel refused to follow Moses, and spent 40 years in the desert. Jesus is greater than Moses. We do not want to wander in the desert. It’s no fun in the desert. So we can’t turn back from Jesus.

Heb. 3:19, So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Many who followed Moses did not enter into the promised land. They did not rest there. They did not receive the inheritance. But those who follow Jesus are promised a better rest, a place to recover from the world:

[Heb 4:8-11 NASB] 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through [following] the same example of disobedience.

Not everyone who followed Moses entered into the sabbath of the Promised Land, but everyone who follows Jesus will enter into the sabbath of Heaven. And so, again, Jesus is greater than Moses.

A bit of a digression: You may have learned this verse in Sunday School:

Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

In the context, this is given as a reason to obey God and to follow Jesus: Because God’s Word is like a sharp sword that can cut you deeply when you sin. But it says something even more profound – the word of God is living and active. It is different from all other books. It has the breath of God running through it.

This book is paper and ink with a leather binding. But these words contain God’s very breath in a tangible form. And that’s pretty amazing. I’m not saying that there’s anything magical about this paper and ink. But the content, the concepts, God is a part of this book. He has made it able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. Has the Word of God ever spoken to you?

[Heb 4:14-16 NASB] 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as [we are, yet] without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Again the writer is hinting at next week’s lesson: Jesus the Great High Priest, the one intercessor between God and Man. But that’s for next week. Let’s spend the week thinking about Jesus, tempted in all things like as we, yet without sin. Think about Jesus giving us direct access to the Throne of Grace. Whose throne is that?

digression: Bema Seat and Mercy Seat.
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Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:31 am

Holiday next Wed., then Week After Next:
-------------- snip ---------

Hebrews Lesson 2
Jesus is Better Than the Priests:

A priest is someone who mediates between God and Man. Someone who stand halfway, in the middle (media) and speaks for both sides. Negotiator, Ambassador, Agent. A priest takes a sacrifice to God on behalf of the people, and returns with a message from God to the people.

The high priest – only one – takes a sacrifice one a year for all of the people, including himself and the other priests, and enters the most holy place, to have all of the sins of all of the people made right with God. In the temples at Jerusalem – so far there have been two – there was a holy place, reserved for the priests, and a most holy place where only the high priest could enter. Rope on the ankle, bells on the robes.

We have had hints so far about Jesus as a high priest. Last week we read 2:17-18 and 4:14-16. Now we get to the facts about Jesus as a priest.

[Heb 5:1-4 KJV] 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.

Let’s think about the priests in Aaron’s order:
1. Ordained, set aside, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins;
2. Can have compassion on ignorant sinners, because he is an ignorant sinner;
3. Offers sacrifices for himself and for others;
4. Did not choose to be a priest, but was called by God, as was Aaron.

[Heb 5:5-10 KJV] 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus, in comparison:
1. Did not choose the high priesthood for Himself, but was called by God
2. Was ordained by God to offer a perfect sacrifice,
3. Offered prayers, supplications, tears, and finally obedience,
4. Was called by God to the order of Melchisedec (Also Melchizedek). Not Levi, Judah.

So who is this Melchizedek? What has he got to do with the priests? Don’t feel bad if you’ve never heard of him. Many people haven’t. He only shows up 3 places in the entire Bible. Here’s the first:

[Gen 14:18-24 NASB] 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all.

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give the people to me and take the goods for yourself." 22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will not take a thread or a sandal thong or anything that is yours, for fear you would say, 'I have made Abram rich.' 24 "I will take nothing except what the young men have eaten, and the share of the men who went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their share."

Melchizedek means King of Righteousness, and he is introduced to us as the King of Salem. It is speculated that Salem is Jerusalem (Jehweh (YHWH) is my Peace). Salem means peace in Aramaic, and is the root for the Hebrew shalom, and the Arabic salaam. JCST. Melchizedek has no genealogy. This is rare in Genesis.

King of Righteousness, King of Peace. Priest of God Most High. No forefathers (listed). No beginning and no end. Received tithes from Abram. Gave them bread and wine. Did he say…

Jesus is the Prince of Peace, the Sun of Righteousness. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. He has no beginning and no end. He gave his disciples bread and wine. Jesus is now made a High Priest of God Most High: Ps. 110:4 (v. 1 was quoted last week in ch. 1, now in 5:6)

[Psa 110:1-5 NASB] 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, [saying,] "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." 3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You [as] the dew. 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

Who is he, then? – discuss –
A. A Canaanite Prince? But Abraham worshipped alone…
B. Shem? But why change his name? Rabbinical.
C. Christ in a pre-incarnate appearance; a theophany. MH thinks it unlikely any mere man would be worthy of having Christ in his order.

Side note on Abraham’s refusal of the wealth of Sodom: We will see later By Faith that he had good reason not to be enchanted by things of this world. “Lest you shall say…”
Returning to Hebrews 5: Jesus is a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, that is, not based on tribal association, and not based on human traditions. Jesus does not need to sacrifice for Himself before He sacrifices for us. He has no beginning and no end, and He will not need a successor.

Milk and Meat, 5:12-14. The apostle is very stern here with the readers, essentially asking why he is still having to teach them basics, when they themselves should have been elevated to teaching others. The Bible is not something we should learn and then set aside, but something alive and active, growing in our lives. cf. 4:12. Bible study is a continual thing. [Psa 1:1-2 NASB] 1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

Into chapter 6, the writer is encouraging the readers not to have to learn the same lessons over and over: Repentance, Faith in God, Baptism, Laying on of Hands, Resurrection of the Dead, and Eternal Judgment. DGuzik: “A Jew and a Christian together could say, “Let’s repent, let’s have faith, let’s perform ceremonial washings,” and so forth. But this was a subtle denial of Jesus. This is entirely characteristic of those who feel discouraged and wish to give up. There is always the temptation to still be religious, but not so “fanatical” about Jesus.” MB from BKSBC. Judges, cycle of repentance. Trying to blend in, not being distinctly and overtly Christian.

[Heb 6:4-6 NASB] 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

We could take this to mean that if you ever stop coming to church you’ve lost everything, and have no part in Christ. I believe that this passage is actually telling us to be diligent not to fall away, because it would be like putting Jesus back onto the cross again. cf. Romans 6:1-3, 7 What then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Let it never be! For do you not know that as many of us as have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized also into his death? … And he who is dead is freed from sin. Once the ultimate price has been paid for our sins, how can we say that that is not enough?

The writer touches on Psalm 110:4 a third time:
[Heb 6:13, 17-20 NASB] 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, ...
17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,
18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a [hope] both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
In this passage we see that God sealed Jesus as our great High Priest with an oath. God is not going to change his mind and say “Ha-ha, just kidding.” So if God made Jesus the anchor of our faith, forever; and if God cannot lie, then who can we possibly hope for that would be a better high priest, a better path to God? The warning not to fall away is based on how you can possibly find another savior. John 6:68

“sure and steadfast” – certain, unfailing, sure and certain hope – “Anchor; within the veil” – this is the curtain that separated the holy place from the most holy place. We will talk more about that next week in discussing the covenant. But for now, Jesus is our anchor, and he is within the veil, and he holds fast. At the beginning of our discussion tonight we spoke of the priests entering the most holy place with bells and a rope. This is the opposite idea. Jesus is the anchor, and He can draw us to God. We can now enter the most holy place with Jesus our High Priest. Matt. 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45.

Looking ahead, [Heb 10:19-22 NASB] 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since [we have] a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

(time permitting, digression about the veil, way/truth/life?, Josephus JW 5.5.5.219, A15.11.3.394 Talmud makes it one handbredth (4”) in thickness: (Exod. Rab. 50:4
[on Exod 36:35]; m. Sheq. 8:4–5; Num. Rab. 4:13 [on Num 4:5]) Tradition of 2 oxen, unconfirmed source – Possibly all apochryphal.)

Back in 6:18-19, I want to draw your attention to the word “Hope.” We will talk about that in greater depth two weeks from now, when we talk about faith and what faith truly is; in order to do that we need to take about hope, also. More to follow.

Chapter 7 takes up the theme of Mechizedek again. The first 10 verses are very powerful, please read those. But let me draw your eye to

[Heb 7:11-12, 16, 19, 26-28 NASB]
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. ...
16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. ...
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. ...
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the [sins] of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, [appoints] a Son, made perfect forever.

The writer sums up why Jesus is superior to the high priests in Aaron’s line, and it comes down to this: The Law cannot save you. And this starts us towards the next point, which we will address next week: Jesus’ New Covenant is better that the Old Covenant.

Here is one image to cap off our discussion for now, and prepare us for next week:
[Heb 9:11-12 NASB] 11 But when Christ appeared [as] a high priest of the good things to come, [He entered] through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

We have a picture here of Jesus, the Perfect High Priest, entering the Perfect Temple, and offering the Perfect Sacrifice. Mind blown. Perfect = complete. Done. (Side note, Lloyd).

If possible please read Hebrews 9, or better, 9 and 10, before next week. Jesus is better than the old covenant.
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by SEG » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:10 am

Would you ever make up a course studying the secular evidence of the historical Jesus? That would be a lot more substantial than studying whether "Jesus Is Better Than the Angels; Better Than Moses." If the evidence is shaky about whether he existed or not, everything else is moot.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Humanguy
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Humanguy » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:59 am

Christians study the Bible, sure. So what?

Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:40 am

SEG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:10 am
Would you ever make up a course studying the secular evidence of the historical Jesus? That would be a lot more substantial than studying whether "Jesus Is Better Than the Angels; Better Than Moses." If the evidence is shaky about whether he existed or not, everything else is moot.
Secular evidence for Historical Jesus? I might actually do something along those lines, though I would look at it more as a general study in Apologetics. I was working recently on some material that I haven't used regarding the gospel as seen from the writings of "Hostile Witnesses" (i.e. those historical writings which seek to discredit Christ but wind up admitting things about the gospel in the process).

Right now, we're taking our Bible Studies in 6-week increments, and I was asked to teach the men for this one (some of our studies are divide into men's studies and women's studies, others by topic -- for example, in the last six-week set (one class for everyone), the Pastor taught a series on the Biblical response to depression. A licensed clinician was in attendance for some of the sessions and helped to answer questions.

If you mean would I teach Carrier's conclusions, no, not any more than you would teach the Apostle Paul's.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Og3
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by Og3 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:44 am

Humanguy wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:59 am
Christians study the Bible, sure. So what?
Thank you for stipulating that.

Among honest atheists, it's not a question. The problem only seems to arise among anti-theists, so in many cases it is a moot point.

But if (as I hope) we are trying to understand each other and to see the reasons that we each have for the beliefs or lack of beliefs that we each hold, then it seems to me that a thread such as this -- exploring what precisely Christians study in the Bible, and how the extract its meaning -- might be generally beneficial. _Pro Bono Publico_, so to speak.
EGO TE ABSOLVO, and there's nothing you can do about it.

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SEG
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Re: Christians studying the Bible...

Post by SEG » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:12 am

Og3 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:40 am
Secular evidence for Historical Jesus? I might actually do something along those lines, though I would look at it more as a general study in Apologetics.
If you did, I would hope you would do a lot more honest job of it than Nickey Gumbel's Alpha Course. That was blatant "Lying for Jesus" at it's worst.
I was working recently on some material that I haven't used regarding the gospel as seen from the writings of "Hostile Witnesses" (i.e. those historical writings which seek to discredit Christ but wind up admitting things about the gospel in the process).

That reminds me of an episode of Little House on the Prairie we were watching last night called, "Mr. Edwards' Homecoming". He stopped his belief in the church (not his belief in God mind you) because his wife and daughter died of Smallpox without God intervening. When he told this to his new Christian romance, she dropped him like a hot potato, despite him telling her that this didn't affect their relationship and he was the same person she knew. It was unforgiving, cold, hard shunning without any explanation or tolerance.

Everyone got into him, telling him to stop punishing God, lol! The episode ends with him re-joining the church and joining in singing "Bringing in the Sheaves". His icy cold girlfriend welcomes him back into the fold and everyone is deliriously happy!
Right now, we're taking our Bible Studies in 6-week increments, and I was asked to teach the men for this one (some of our studies are divide into men's studies and women's studies, others by topic -- for example, in the last six-week set (one class for everyone), the Pastor taught a series on the Biblical response to depression. A licensed clinician was in attendance for some of the sessions and helped to answer questions.
Cool, anything to support mental illness is a great idea. I wonder if bullied gays would receive similar support without any proselytising or condemnation?
If you mean would I teach Carrier's conclusions, no, not any more than you would teach the Apostle Paul's.
I wouldn't expect you to, although I would expect you to tell the whole truth.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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