God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

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searchengineguy
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God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:12 am

God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac
Genesis 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

20 And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;

21 Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,

22 And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.

23 And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham's brother.

24 And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, she bare also Tebah, and Gaham, and Thahash, and Maachah.
God's Lies
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
He conspired to get Abraham to lie to his son about being invited to a burnt offering. HE was the burnt offering!
and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
God is lying again about only having one son.

Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.

If Abraham truly knew God's mind/nature, when God suggested that he commit child sacrifice he should have exclaimed, "out foul beast, you are not God you deceiver!" For he should have known that ever loving God would never suggest something like that. He should have failed this test miserably, instead he passed with flying colours.

This means that he should expect God to order him to commit any heinous crime, as this is his evil nature.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:17 pm

I know you have become interested in Christian existentialism (unless you are referencing books without being aware of their content and context) so would it be interesting to explore Kierkegaard's views on this?

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Chapabel
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Chapabel » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:27 pm

God did not lie. God and Abraham both knew Ishmael was his biological child. But Ishmael was not the child God had promised Abraham. Isaac was the child of promise. By this time in the story, Abraham had already sent Ishmael and Hagar away, so Isaac was the only son Abraham had.

Since God had promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation, he was not the least bit hesitant to sacrifice Isaac because he knew God would have to raise him from the dead because of the promise He had made:

Heb.11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Again, your ignorance of the Bible has failed you and left you standing there with egg on your face. 😂

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:05 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:17 pm
I know you have become interested in Christian existentialism (unless you are referencing books without being aware of their content and context) so would it be interesting to explore Kierkegaard's views on this?
No not atm thanks, I am tied up with books by Paul Tillich, Rudolf Bultmann, and Rollo May.

As if!
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:17 am

Chapabel wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:27 pm
God did not lie. God and Abraham both knew Ishmael was his biological child.
He was still his son. Son number two. So the lies stand.
But Ishmael was not the child God had promised Abraham. Isaac was the child of promise. By this time in the story, Abraham had already sent Ishmael and Hagar away, so Isaac was the only son Abraham had.
It doesn't matter where he was sent, he was still his son. He could have been on the other side of the Earth and still been his son. The REAL reason that he was not recognised as a son was that God and Abraham placed no value on poor little Ishmael because he was born from a valueless slave in their eyes. So therefore they didn't recognise him as a person and both lied about only having one son. How sick is that?
Since God had promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation, he was not the least bit hesitant to sacrifice Isaac because he knew God would have to raise him from the dead because of the promise He had made:
So if he had actually killed his son with a knife and burned his body, that's cool, because you think god made a promise to revive him? This sort of thinking would have Abraham commit ANY atrocity in God's name because if God ordered it, so child sacrifice and other atrocities in his name must be ok. How about the children that died from God wanting to have a bet with Satan? They weren't resuscitated or raised from the dead, were they?

The correct way that Abraham should have reacted was not to accept that his God would order such a human sacrifice, because that is not his loving nature. He should have failed the test for not recognising that God would never order child sacrifice, especially to his own son.

He should have immediately assumed that it was the devil as it wasn't God's nature and refused the demand.

Could you imagine what Isaac was thinking when his father bound him and set him up on the altar? There is no sheep here to sacrifice, Dad must have been hearing voices and I am now bound up on top of sticks while he approaches me with a knife! This is the worst type of child abuse but you can't see it. Recognising child abuse as an act of love is a mental illness. You need professional help.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Chapabel
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Chapabel » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:29 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:17 am
The correct way that Abraham should have reacted was...
Who are you to determine how Abraham should have reacted? You act as if you're omniscient. I can assure you that you're not. You don't know God the way Abraham knew Him. You don't have the faith in God that Abraham had. That results in you not having the blessings of God that Abraham received.
Could you imagine what Isaac was thinking when his father bound him and set him up on the altar? There is no sheep here to sacrifice, Dad must have been hearing voices and I am now bound up on top of sticks while he approaches me with a knife! This is the worst type of child abuse but you can't see it. Recognising child abuse as an act of love is a mental illness. You need professional help.
What makes you think this was child abuse? In fact, what makes you believe Isaac was even a child? The Bible does not give Isaac's age during this event. Isaac could have been in his teens or even in his twenties when this took place. Gen.22:6 tells us Isaac was strong enough to carry all the wood for the burnt offering. Remember also, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. If Isaac was in his late teens or early twenties, he could have easily overcome a 120 year old man. It appears that Isaac willingly allowed Abraham to bind him and place him on the alter. Isaac offered no resistance. Nor did he plead for his life, so obviously Isaac had no problem with the situation. Your argument that Abraham mentally abused Isaac is based on an unfounded assumption.

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:37 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:17 am
The correct way that Abraham should have reacted was...
Chapabel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:29 pm
Who are you to determine how Abraham should have reacted?
I know what loving people do and what murderous, insane people do. Loving people would never demand you lie to your son, bind him, knife him and burn him on an alter to worship his greatness. Murderous, insane people would do these things and you apparently can't recognize that there is a difference. That's why I am recommending that you get professional help pronto.
You act as if you're omniscient. I can assure you that you're not. You don't know God the way Abraham knew Him. You don't have the faith in God that Abraham had. That results in you not having the blessings of God that Abraham received.
No, I am acting like a normal rational person that understands what is right and wrong. Abraham and you don't have a problem hearing voices in your heads demanding that you carry out abominations on your own family members. If he didn't hesitate to carry out those demands, he didn't think that it was outside God's nature to order such a vile thing. You don't have a problem with that, which is frightening.
Could you imagine what Isaac was thinking when his father bound him and set him up on the altar? There is no sheep here to sacrifice, Dad must have been hearing voices and I am now bound up on top of sticks while he approaches me with a knife! This is the worst type of child abuse but you can't see it. Recognising child abuse as an act of love is a mental illness. You need professional help.
Chapabel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:29 pm
What makes you think this was child abuse? In fact, what makes you believe Isaac was even a child? The Bible does not give Isaac's age during this event. Isaac could have been in his teens or even in his twenties when this took place. Gen.22:6 tells us Isaac was strong enough to carry all the wood for the burnt offering. Remember also, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. If Isaac was in his late teens or early twenties, he could have easily overcome a 120 year old man. It appears that Isaac willingly allowed Abraham to bind him and place him on the alter. Isaac offered no resistance. Nor did he plead for his life, so obviously Isaac had no problem with the situation. Your argument that Abraham mentally abused Isaac is based on an unfounded assumption.
It doesn't matter how old he was. Just because the Bible doesn't mention that he didn't plead for his life or was terrified doesn't mean that he didn't react that way. That's what normal people do and I am alarmed that you can't see this. Seek help,son. Put down your Bible and call 911·
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:47 pm

If you know God's nature so well, what was he testing him for? To see whether he would do ANYTHING that God asked him to do without question because his love and commitment was so strong? Even if it was to lie to his son, knife and burn him to death? Normally when I ask you a question about this you would say it isn't in his nature to do such a thing and he would recognise that fact. But now him ordering human sacrifice or being ok with it is NOT outside his nature. You may remember that God also didn't have a problem with Jephtha committing human sacrifice with his own daughter in the Book of Judges, so maybe it IS in his nature. Maybe your god DOES love human sacrifice.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Chapabel
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Chapabel » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:10 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:37 pm
It doesn't matter how old he was. Just because the Bible doesn't mention that he didn't plead for his life or was terrified doesn't mean that he didn't react that way. That's what normal people do and I am alarmed that you can't see this. Seek help,son. Put down your Bible and call 911·
Again, you are making an entire argument based on nothing speculation. There is no indication Isaac was frightened at all. Your argument from silence is a recognized fallacy. You claim to know what "normal" people do, but what is normal to you is obscene to someone like me. Normal is subjective. So again, you are left with no support for your opinion. Your argument fails. Game, set and match.
Last edited by Chapabel on Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Chapabel » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:15 pm

searchengineguy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:47 pm
If you know God's nature so well, what was he testing him for? To see whether he would do ANYTHING that God asked him to do without question because his love and commitment was so strong? Even if it was to lie to his son, knife and burn him to death? Normally when I ask you a question about this you would say it isn't in his nature to do such a thing and he would recognise that fact. But now him ordering human sacrifice or being ok with it is NOT outside his nature. You may remember that God also didn't have a problem with Jephtha committing human sacrifice with his own daughter in the Book of Judges, so maybe it IS in his nature. Maybe your god DOES love human sacrifice.
He was testing his faith in God's promise. Abraham never lied to Isaac BTW. That's another falsehood you've put out there.

God did ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, but He didn't allow him to go through with it did He? Therefore God did not sanction human sacrifice. How do you know God had no problem with Jeptha sacrificing his daughter? Book, chapter and verse please. As far as Jeptha's daughter, did God ask Jeptha to sacrifice her? No. Again, God does not condone any human sacrifice. So there you are again standing there with no evidence at all.

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