God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:30 am

@SEG

"He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will shew thee" (Gen. 22:2)

Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, unlike his other son, Ishmael. And, Ishmael and his children were also Abraham's posterity, because Abraham was Isaac and Ishmael's father (Gen. 21:13)

So, God did not lie about Isaac being his only begotten son as you claim.

For three days Abraham, Isaac, and the servants traveled, and on the third, before Abraham and Isaac continued on alone to the place shewn by God, Abraham stated to the the servants they would return.

"And he said to his young men: Stay you here with the ass: I and the boy will go with speed as far as yonder, and after we have worshipped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5)

It's apparent Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19), but when Abraham was on the point of rending the heart of his son, an angel stayed his hand, and a ram was sacrificed as a burnt offering instead (Gen. 22:13). This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping (Gen. 22:5)

So, Abraham did not lie about Issac going to worship with him as you claim.

Then, God started to speak of Abraham's obedience in sacrificing his son: "thou hast done this thing, and hast not spared thy only begotten son for my sake". How was he obedient if Isaac lived you may ask? In his heart he already sacrificed his son, during the journey, through his will to obey, which was arrested by the angel (The Poem of the Man-God). And, that's why God continued on saying: "I will bless thee, and I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the sea shore: thy seed shall possess the gates of their enemies. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen. 22:16-18)

----------
God and His command to Abraham

"He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will shew thee" (Gen. 22:2)
  • God was not tempting, or enticing, Abraham to do wrong, rather testing him to see if he'd do what was right (trust and obey)
  • God was not instituting, or condoning child sacrifice. He detests it: Deut. 12:31, Lev. 20:2-5, Jer. 32:35, Ezek. 20:26, Isa. 57:4-5
  • God was not telling Abraham to do wrong. God has the right to take life, and could authorize one to do so in a particular case.
Why did God give this command?
It was for Abraham to demonstrate he trusted Him completely, and placed Him above all else, even his own son.

Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life (Job 1:21/1 Samuel 2:6), therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.

While Abraham had already sacrificed his son in his heart, through his will to obey, he would've physically too had the angel sent by God not stayed his hand. If that hadn't happened, it wouldn't have been wrong of Abraham even then, for reasons explained.

What better way to test the father of many generations of humans who will carry this faith, than using the same method God will reward humanities faith through sacrificing His own Son.

Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?

----------
The Works of Abraham as enumerated by Jesus with regard to their nature and symbol:

"Abraham obeyed by going to the country pointed out to him by God, and is thus the symbol of a man who must be prepared to leave everything to go where God sends him.

Abraham was obliging with his brother's son, whom he allowed to choose the region he preferred, thus symbolizing respect for freedom of action, and the charitable mind we must have for our neighbor.

Abraham was humble after the predilection of God, Whom he honored in Mamre, always feeling he was mere nothing in comparison with the Most High, Who had spoken to him, a symbol of the place of reverential love man must always keep towards his God.

Abraham believed and obeyed also in the most difficult matters to believe and painful to accomplish, and he did not become selfish in order to be safe, but he prayed for the people of Sodom.

Abraham did not come to terms with the Lord, by requesting a reward for his manifold obedience, on the contrary, in order to honor Him to the very end, to the extreme limit, he sacrificed his beloved son to Him." -- The Poem of the Man-God

To conclude, it was necessary Abraham prove his faith through action: "His faith was made complete by what he did" (Jas. 2:21-23). Because of his actions, not only God but Abraham, his family and future generations knew he trusted God, treated Him as He deserves, and benefited from this.
Last edited by Claire on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:53 am

Claire wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:38 am
Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son
It doesn't mention begotten son in most Bibles I know.
So, God did not lie about Isaac being his only begotten son as you claim.
Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said that!
It's apparent Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead
No it's not, you have misconstrued that verse. "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death." But that wasn't a given that God would raise Isaac from the dead. It's saying that because Isaac wasn't harmed in the end it was like he was raised from the dead.

but when Abraham was on the point of rending the heart of his son, an angel stayed his hand, and a ram was sacrificed as a burnt offering instead (Gen. 22:13). This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping
So, Abraham did not lie about Issac going to worship with him as you claim.
He did wholly expect to murder his son, so he did lie. If it wasn't for the angel's hand, he would have willingly plunged his knife into his son as was ordered by the voice in his head. Dead people don't worship.
Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life
So where does this "Right" come from? What law is above your god's? If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human?
therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.

How would you know the mind of Abraham? It IS wrong to be obedient to ANYONE that commands that you kill or torture another human. Or are you saying that it is special pleading for god?
While Abraham had already sacrificed his son in his heart, through his will to obey, he would've physically too had the angel sent by God not stayed his hand. If that hadn't happened, it wouldn't have been wrong of Abraham even then, for reasons explained.
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
Was Isaac willing or unwilling to be sacrificed?
Considering the parallels between Isaac and Jesus, it's possible that he was, but even if he wasn't, and that's if he was even aware what was about to happen to him, the point stands that neither God, nor Abraham was in the wrong.
Why not? Are you saying that murdering and torturing another human is ok?
What better way to test the father of many generations of humans, who will carry this faith, than using the same method God will reward humanities faith through sacrificing His own Son.
Oh yeah, that's great!
Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
I don't think you should trust him at all, as he demanded human sacrifice that he is supposed to abhor.
SEG wrote:Because he was the mad, evil spirit that convinced Abraham to bind, stab and burn to death in the first place.
You said it's sickening God prevented Isaac's death because He commanded Abraham to sacrifice him.
Yes, because he INSTIGATED the whole thing! Why don't you get this?
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:37 pm

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, unlike his other son, Ishmael. And, Ishmael and his children were also Abraham's posterity, because Abraham was Isaac and Ishmael's father (Gen. 21:13)

So, God did not lie about Isaac being his only begotten son as you claim.
Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said that!
You claimed God lied when He said Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons at all, because of Ishmael. The only word you didn't include was "begotten", but don't pretend as if that makes a difference to you.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:It's apparent Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19)...
No it's not, you have misconstrued that verse.
No. God promised Abraham prosperity through Isaac, then he was commanded to sacrifice him, and he reasoned God could raise him from the dead after he was killed, which as I said, he believed God would do, because of His promise to him, and figuratively He did.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:...but when Abraham was on the point of rending the heart of his son, an angel stayed his hand, and a ram was sacrificed as a burnt offering instead (Gen. 22:13). This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping (Gen. 22:5)
He did wholly expect to murder his son, so he did lie. If it wasn't for the angel's hand, he would have willingly plunged his knife into his son as was ordered by the voice in his head. Dead people don't worship.
Abraham was going to kill his son, but he believed God would raise Isaac from the dead, and figuratively He did. Afterward, the ram was sacrificed instead for worship, which Isaac was alive for. This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping (Gen. 22:5). So, Abraham did not lie to the servants.
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life, therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.
So where does this "Right" come from? What law is above your god's? If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human? How would you know the mind of Abraham?
He has the right because He is who He is. What laws do you think God isn't above? And, humans are a creation of God, already co-creators, though not The Supreme Creator, given a free will.
SEG wrote:It IS wrong to be obedient to ANYONE that commands that you kill or torture another human. Or are you saying that it is special pleading for god?
What do you think I'm saying?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
I don't think you should trust him at all...
Do you not have an answer to the question?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:39 am

Claire wrote:Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, unlike his other son, Ishmael. And, Ishmael and his children were also Abraham's posterity, because Abraham was Isaac and Ishmael's father (Gen. 21:13)
Claire wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:37 pm
So, God did not lie about Isaac being his only begotten son as you claim.
SEG wrote:Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said that!
You claimed God lied when He said Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons at all, because of Ishmael. The only word you didn't include was "begotten", but don't pretend as if that makes a difference to you.
Why shouldn't it, you dishonestly tacked that on, I didn't!
SEG wrote:It's apparent Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19)...
No it's not, you have misconstrued that verse.
Claire wrote:No. God promised Abraham prosperity through Isaac, then he was commanded to sacrifice him, and he reasoned God could raise him from the dead after he was killed, which as I said, he believed God would do, because of His promise to him, and figuratively He did.
How would you know what he believed what god would do? That's a huge stretch.
Claire wrote:...but when Abraham was on the point of rending the heart of his son, an angel stayed his hand, and a ram was sacrificed as a burnt offering instead (Gen. 22:13). This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping (Gen. 22:5)
SEG wrote:He did wholly expect to murder his son, so he did lie. If it wasn't for the angel's hand, he would have willingly plunged his knife into his son as was ordered by the voice in his head. Dead people don't worship.
Abraham was going to kill his son, but he believed God would raise Isaac from the dead, and figuratively He did.
Rubbish, the text says nothing of the sort.
Afterward, the ram was sacrificed instead for worship, which Isaac was alive for. This confirmed what Abraham said would happen: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust" (Gen. 22:8), and that he and Isaac would return after worshiping (Gen. 22:5). So, Abraham did not lie to the servants.
Was it Abraham's intention to murder his son? If you are honest, you would say yes it was. Dead people don't worship and there is nothing in the text to say that Abraham knew that God would a) stop him b) bring Isaac back from the dead. So for him to say in advance that Isaac would return after worshiping, that is one big fat lie!
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is.
Claire wrote:Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life, therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.
SEG wrote:So where does this "Right" come from? What law is above your god's? If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human? How would you know the mind of Abraham?
Claire wrote:He has the right because He is who He is. What laws do you think God isn't above? And, humans are a creation of God, already co-creators, though not The Supreme Creator, given a free will.
SEG wrote:It IS wrong to be obedient to ANYONE that commands that you kill or torture another human. Or are you saying that it is special pleading for god?
What do you think I'm saying?
I honestly don't know. I would guess that you are assigning special pleading for your god, which is a faulty argument.
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
SEG wrote:I don't think you should trust him at all...
Do you not have an answer to the question?
See above.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:50 am

So where does this "Right" that God has come from? What law is above your god's?
If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human?
By your faulty logic and bad morals, a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created.
the point stands that neither God, nor Abraham was in the wrong.
Why did Abraham get rewarded for attempting to murder his son and why did God demand human sacrifice that he is supposed to abhor?
Both of them are sickeningly in the wrong and you defend these heinous actions!
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:28 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, unlike his other son, Ishmael. And, Ishmael and his children were also Abraham's posterity, because Abraham was Isaac and Ishmael's father (Gen. 21:13)

So, God did not lie about Isaac being his only begotten son as you claim.
Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said that!
You claimed God lied when He said Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons at all, because of Ishmael. The only word you didn't include was "begotten", but don't pretend as if that makes a difference to you.
SEG wrote:Why shouldn't it, you dishonestly tacked that on, I didn't!
You quoted a translation of Gen. 22:2 that says "only son Isaac", and you think God meant Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons, because of Ishmael, and therefore lied. Even with translations that say "only begotten son" you'd think the same, so me using the later isn't being dishonest. And, because Isaac is Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, He did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:God promised Abraham prosperity through Isaac, then he was commanded to sacrifice him, and he reasoned God could raise him from the dead after he was killed, which as I said, he believed God would do, because of His promise to him, and figuratively He did.
How would you know what he believed what god would do? That's a huge stretch.
It's not, rather apparent in the text I read.
SEG wrote:Was it Abraham's intention to murder his son? If you are honest, you would say yes it was. Dead people don't worship and there is nothing in the text to say that Abraham knew that God would a) stop him b) bring Isaac back from the dead. So for him to say in advance that Isaac would return after worshiping, that is one big fat lie!
I just said Abraham was intent on killing his son, but he also believed God would raise him from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), so as to fulfill his promise to him (Gen. 21:12), and which did occur in a figurative sense. God sent an angel to stay Abraham's hand, and afterward a ram was sacrificed in worship, thus confirming what Abraham said: not only that God would provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:8), but that after they worshiped would return to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is. So, why are you saying it's not now?
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life, therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.
So where does this "Right" come from? What law is above your god's? If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human? How would you know the mind of Abraham?
He has the right because He is who He is. What laws do you think God isn't above? And, humans are a creation of God, already co-creators, though not The Supreme Creator, given a free will.
SEG wrote:By your faulty logic and bad morals, a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:It IS wrong to be obedient to ANYONE that commands that you kill or torture another human. Or are you saying that it is special pleading for god?
What do you think I'm saying?
I honestly don't know. I would guess that you are assigning special pleading for your god, which is a faulty argument.
I'm just going to start working on typing God, humans, and killing for you in depth. In the meantime, I hope you can at least make less work for me by applying more effort in your responses.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
I don't think you should trust him at all...
That's not what I asked. Either you can think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, to demonstrate one's trust in God to the extreme limit, or you can't. Which is it?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:24 am

Claire wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:28 am
You quoted a translation of Gen. 22:2 that says "only son Isaac", and you think God meant Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons, because of Ishmael, and therefore lied. Even with translations that say "only begotten son" you'd think the same, so me using the later isn't being dishonest. And, because Isaac is Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, He did not lie as you claim.
"Begotten" isn't used in the KJV, what's your earlier translation? Besides, why would God dismiss Ishmael as a son?
Claire wrote:God promised Abraham prosperity through Isaac, then he was commanded to sacrifice him, and he reasoned God could raise him from the dead after he was killed, which as I said, he believed God would do, because of His promise to him, and figuratively He did.
SEG wrote:How would you know what he believed what god would do? That's a huge stretch.
It's not, rather apparent in the text I read.
The text is in Genesis which is earlier than Hebrews and says nothing about God could raise him from the dead after he was killed.
SEG wrote:Was it Abraham's intention to murder his son? If you are honest, you would say yes it was. Dead people don't worship and there is nothing in the text to say that Abraham knew that God would a) stop him b) bring Isaac back from the dead. So for him to say in advance that Isaac would return after worshiping, that is one big fat lie!
I just said Abraham was intent on killing his son, but he also believed God would raise him from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), so as to fulfill his promise to him (Gen. 21:12), and which did occur in a figurative sense.
Now you are making stuff up!
God sent an angel to stay Abraham's hand, and afterward a ram was sacrificed in worship, thus confirming what Abraham said: not only that God would provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:8), but that after they worshiped would return to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
How could Abraham know that an angel was going to stop him? He didn't!
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is. So, why are you saying it's not now?
Quote me in full!
SEG wrote:So where does this "Right" come from? What law is above your god's? If being a creator means that you can kill or torture who you please, does this apply to man when we finally create a cloned human? How would you know the mind of Abraham?
Claire wrote:He has the right because He is who He is. What laws do you think God isn't above? And, humans are a creation of God, already co-creators, though not The Supreme Creator, given a free will.
The right has to come from somewhere, who gives him the right?
SEG wrote:By your faulty logic and bad morals, a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created.
Claire wrote:What do you think I'm saying?
SEG wrote:I honestly don't know. I would guess that you are assigning special pleading for your god, which is a faulty argument.
Claire wrote:To answer your questions and more, I'm just going to start working on typing God, humans, and killing for you in depth. In the meantime, I hope you can at least make less work for me by improving your reading comprehension, and applying more effort in your responses.
I don't think that your own reading comprehension is crash hot. Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
SEG wrote:I don't think you should trust him at all...
Quote me in full!
Claire wrote:That's not what I asked. Either you can think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, to demonstrate one's trust in God to the extreme limit, or you can't. Which is it?
You have created a false dilemma, which again demonstrates your faulty logic. There is a third option, which is invoked when you consider that God can't be trusted and lied.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:42 pm

Let me make this crystal clear to Christians that believe that this awful tale is all about love, trust and sacrifice.

1· It's not love to order someone to bind, torture, and murder their child.

2· It's not trust to deceive others to get this horrible deed done.

3· It's not sacrifice to bind, torture, and murder your own child. It's stupid blind faith and that should never be rewarded.

Abraham should have realised that a truly loving god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER order such an awful crime and had the courage to refuse a supposed all powerful being or imaginary voice in his head.

That WOULD demonstrate true love, trust and sacrifice.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:47 am

SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:You quoted a translation of Gen. 22:2 that says "only son Isaac", and you think God meant Isaac is Abraham's only son, as in has no other sons, because of Ishmael, and therefore lied. Even with translations that say "only begotten son" you'd think the same, so me using the later isn't being dishonest. And, because Isaac is Abraham's only begotten son, as in only son promised by God, He did not lie as you claim.
"Begotten" isn't used in the KJV, what's your earlier translation? Besides, why would God dismiss Ishmael as a son?
God didn't dismiss Ishmael as Abraham's son, rather told Abraham that because he's his son, there'd be a great nation from him also (Gen. 21:13). So, Ishmael and his children were also Abraham's posterity, because Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael (The Poem of the Man-God)

Regarding Isaac, if you need to see him referred to as "only begotten son" in the KJV then here: "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11:17-19). If you're still unsatisfied, it doesn't matter, because there's more than one way to say things, and the meaning behind the text in any biblical translation is the same, though not always understood the same among readers. Back to the point, God didn't lie as you claim, for reasons explained.
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:God promised Abraham prosperity through Isaac, then he was commanded to sacrifice him, and he reasoned God could raise him from the dead after he was killed, which as I said, he believed God would do, because of His promise to him, and figuratively He did.
How would you know what he believed what god would do? That's a huge stretch.
It's not, rather apparent in the text I read.
SEG wrote:The text is in Genesis which is earlier than Hebrews and says nothing about God could raise him from the dead after he was killed.
It doesn't matter if it's elaborated upon in Hebrews when it's inspired by God.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Was it Abraham's intention to murder his son? If you are honest, you would say yes it was. Dead people don't worship and there is nothing in the text to say that Abraham knew that God would a) stop him b) bring Isaac back from the dead. So for him to say in advance that Isaac would return after worshiping, that is one big fat lie!
I just said Abraham was intent on killing his son, but he also believed God would raise him from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), so as to fulfill his promise to him (Gen. 21:12), and which did occur in a figurative sense.
How could Abraham know that an angel was going to stop him? He didn't!
I didn't say he knew such specifics prior to, only that he believed God would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), which did occur figuratively. Afterward, a sacrifice was offered for worship, just as Abraham said would happen (Gen. 22:8), though he initially thought it'd be his son. Then, after worshiping by sacrificing the ram, they returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is. So, why are you saying it's not now?
Quote me in full!
It wouldn't make a difference, because this is about the initial statement itself you made, not your reason for making it. So, why did you go from stating God having prevented Isaac's death is sickening to it's not sickening?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
Abraham should have realised that a truly loving god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER order such an awful crime and had the courage to refuse a supposed all powerful being or imaginary voice in his head.

That WOULD demonstrate true love, trust and sacrifice.
It's not about God Himself in this instance, nor if He should be trusted or not. There's those who trust Him, and that being right or wrong is irrelevant. It's about whether you can think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, that would demonstrate their trust in Him to the extreme limit, generally speaking. So, can you or not?
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
As I said, I'm just going to start working on typing about God, humans, and killing for you in depth. In the meantime, I hope you can at least make less work for me by applying more effort in your responses.
Last edited by Claire on Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:43 am

Claire wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:47 am
If you're still unsatisfied, it doesn't matter, because there's more than one way to say things, and the meaning behind the text in any biblical translation is the same, though not always understood the same among readers. Back to the point, God didn't lie as you claim, for reasons explained.
Begotten is the past tense of beget:
Definition of beget
transitive verb

1: to procreate as the father : SIRE
He died without begetting an heir.
So he did lie, if you are saying that he was the only legitimate son, why would God show any favours to "legitimate" children? Doesn't your god love us all and treat us the same?


SEG wrote:How would you know what he believed what god would do? That's a huge stretch.
Claire wrote:It's not, rather apparent in the text I read.
SEG wrote:The text is in Genesis which is earlier than Hebrews and says nothing about God could raise him from the dead after he was killed.
Claire wrote:It doesn't matter if it's elaborated upon in Hebrews when it's inspired by God.
You are making stuff up again

Claire wrote:I just said Abraham was intent on killing his son, but he also believed God would raise him from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), so as to fulfill his promise to him (Gen. 21:12), and which did occur in a figurative sense.
SEG wrote:How could Abraham know that an angel was going to stop him? He didn't!
I didn't say he knew such specifics prior to, only that he believed God would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb.11:17-19), which did occur figuratively. Afterward, a sacrifice was offered for worship, just as Abraham said would happen (Gen. 22:8), though he initially thought it'd be his son. Then, after worshiping by sacrificing the ram, they returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
That does not explain how could Abraham know that an angel was going to stop him. He thought that he would bind, cause torture by stabbing and burn his son. If his son was DEAD, he can't worship can he or return to the servants? This meant that he LIED. You can't get away with this by quoting scripture when it is clear that Abraham was going to blindly murder his son, which was an evil command by your blood thirsty god.
SEG wrote:Abraham should have realised that a truly loving god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER order such an awful crime and had the courage to refuse a supposed all powerful being or imaginary voice in his head. That WOULD demonstrate true love, trust and sacrifice.
It's not about God Himself in this instance, nor if He should be trusted or not.

Yes it is, and he fails miserably as a demonic monster. If you can answer my last question and we are done:
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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