God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:34 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:God's Lies
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
Only son as in only legitimate son at the time.
SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
You quote a translation of Gen. 22:2 that says "only son Isaac", and just assume that means as in only child, thus claim God was lying because of Abraham's other son Ishmael. However, God recognized Ishmael as a son of Abraham and blessed him (Gen. 17:20). Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

Other translations of Gen. 22:2 read "only begotten son Isaac", and the Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), which means "only of its kind". Such is the case with Isaac, because God chose him to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17). Isaac was the only legitimate son of the perpetual covenant made with Abraham, meaning he alone was the son that God had promised to Abraham. So, your claim God lied is false, including your claim the word "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
SEG wrote:Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Note: In case you want to edit, I noticed you accidentally typed "Adam's Lies", rather than "Abraham's Lies".

Now, Abraham told his servants: "after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He said that out of trust God could and would raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did. Afterward they did worship by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.

Regarding Gen. 22:8, considering the context, the word "lamb" in your translation is meant to signify "sacrifice", just as the word "victim" in the following translation does as well: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son." And, just as Abraham said, God did provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:13), though he initially thought it was to be Isaac. So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
Already answered.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Yet, you gave a reason as to why you think it is. So, why are you saying it's not now?
Quote me in full!
It wouldn't make a difference, because my question is about the initial statement itself you made, not your reason for making it. So, why did you go from stating God having prevented Isaac's death is sickening to it's not sickening?
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:Can you think of an act greater than sacrificing oneself, or a loved one, that would test one's trust in God to the extreme limit? If so, what?
Abraham should have realised that a truly loving god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER order such an awful crime and had the courage to refuse a supposed all powerful being or imaginary voice in his head.

That WOULD demonstrate true love, trust and sacrifice.
It's not about God Himself in this instance, nor if He should be trusted or not.
SEG wrote:Yes it is...
No, my question is about there's those who trust God, and that being right or wrong is irrelevant. It's about whether you can think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, that would demonstrate their trust in Him to the extreme limit, generally speaking. So, can you?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:48 am

SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
Claire wrote:You quote a translation of Gen. 22:2 that says "only son Isaac", and just assume that means as in only child, thus claim God was lying because of Abraham's other son Ishmael. However, God recognized Ishmael as a son of Abraham, blessed him (Gen. 17:20), and Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

Other translations of Gen. 22:2 read "only begotten son Isaac", and the Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), which means "only of its kind". Such is the case with Isaac, because God chose him to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17). Isaac was the only legitimate son of the perpetual covenant made with Abraham, meaning he alone was the son that God had promised to Abraham. So, your claim God lied is false, including your claim the word "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
Begotten is the past tense of beget:
Definition of beget
transitive verb

1: to procreate as the father : SIRE
He died without begetting an heir.
So he did lie, if you are saying that he was the only legitimate son, why would God show any favours to "legitimate" children? Doesn't your god love us all and treat us the same?

the word "begotten" isn't used in the KJV for those relevant verses, though yes, it is used there in Heb. 11:17. Both passages say nothing about "legitimate" children. Again why would God show any favours to "legitimate" children and ignore "illegitimate" children?

SEG wrote:Abraham's Lies

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Now, Abraham said to his servants: "...after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He did intend to kill his son, Isaac, but said that out of trust God could and would raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did.
But he didn't KNOW that beforehand did he?

Afterward they did worship by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19). So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
He did, because he did not have any foreknowledge of being stopped. He thought that he was going to kill and torture his own son, therefore he lied.
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
Already answered.
Remind me then. Should it also work for any human creator?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:It wouldn't make a difference, because my question is about the initial statement itself you made, not your reason for making it. So, why did you go from stating God having prevented Isaac's death is sickening to it's not sickening?
Don't play daft. It's sickening that God initiated all of this and it's not sickening that he stopped it.
SEG wrote:Abraham should have realised that a truly loving god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER order such an awful crime and had the courage to refuse a supposed all powerful being or imaginary voice in his head.

That WOULD demonstrate true love, trust and sacrifice.
It's not about God Himself in this instance, nor if He should be trusted or not.
SEG wrote:Yes it is...
Claire wrote:No, my question is about there's those who trust God, and that being right or wrong is irrelevant. It's about whether you can think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, that would demonstrate their trust in Him to the extreme limit, generally speaking. So, can you?
Quote me in full!
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
Posts: 1400
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:11 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:God's Lies
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
Only son as in only legitimate son at the time.
SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
Depending on the translation of Gen 22:2, you'll either read "only son Isaac", or "only begotten son Isaac". The Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), which means "only of its kind", or "sole heir". God chose Isaac to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17). Isaac was the only legitimate son of the covenant, meaning he alone was the son that God had promised to Abraham and his wife (Gen. 17:15).

However, God did recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham and blessed him (Gen. 17:20). Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

So, your claims God lied about Abraham having no other sons, and that Ishmael wasn't recognized as Abraham's son are false, including the one where "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
SEG wrote:Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Note: In case you want to edit, I noticed you accidentally typed "Adam's Lies", rather than "Abraham's Lies".

Abraham told his servants: "after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He said that out of trust God could and would raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did. Afterward they worshiped, by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19), so Abraham did not lie as you claim.

Regarding Gen. 22:8, considering the context, the word "lamb" in your translation is meant to signify "sacrifice", just as the word "victim" in the following translation does as well: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son." And, just as Abraham said, God did provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:13), though he initially thought it was to be Isaac. So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
Already answered.
Remind me then.
Re-read my posts.
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Then, why did you initially say it was?


Can you think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, that would demonstrate their trust in Him to the extreme limit, generally speaking?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:17 pm

Claire wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:11 am
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:God's Lies



Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
Only son as in only legitimate son at the time.
SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
Depending on the translation of Gen 22:2, you'll either read "only son Isaac", or "only begotten son Isaac". The Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), which means "only of its kind", or "sole heir". God chose Isaac to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17). Isaac was the only legitimate son of the covenant, meaning he alone was the son that God had promised to Abraham and his wife (Gen. 17:15).

However, God did recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham and blessed him (Gen. 17:20). Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

So, your claims God lied about Abraham having no other sons, and that Ishmael wasn't recognized as Abraham's son are false, including the one where "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
SEG wrote:Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Note: In case you want to edit, I noticed you accidentally typed "Adam's Lies", rather than "Abraham's Lies".

Abraham told his servants: "after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He said that out of trust God could and would raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did. Afterward they worshiped, by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19), so Abraham did not lie as you claim.

Regarding Gen. 22:8, considering the context, the word "lamb" in your translation is meant to signify "sacrifice", just as the word "victim" in the following translation does as well: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son." And, just as Abraham said, God did provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:13), though he initially thought it was to be Isaac. So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
Already answered.
Remind me then.
Re-read my posts.
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Then, why did you initially say it was?


Can you think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or a loved one, that would demonstrate their trust in Him to the extreme limit, generally speaking?
God and Abraham don't deserve any trust after their deceptive behaviour as previously revealed. God initiated this appalling act, so he was probably worse.

You thinking that these acts were commendable is sick thinking. Thank God that they were all imaginary.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

searchengineguy
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:20 pm

So a human creator can murder and torture his creations all he wants according to your moral beliefs?
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:58 pm

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:God's Lies
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
Only son as in only legitimate son at the time.
SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
Depending on the translation of Gen 22:2, you'll either read "only son Isaac", or "only begotten son Isaac". The Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), which means "only of its kind", or "sole heir". God chose Isaac to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17). Isaac was the only legitimate son of the covenant, meaning he alone was the son that God had promised to Abraham and his wife (Gen. 17:15).

However, God did recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham and blessed him (Gen. 17:20). Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

So, your claims God lied about Abraham having no other sons, and that Ishmael wasn't recognized as Abraham's son are false, including the one where the word "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
SEG wrote:Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Note: In case you want to edit, I noticed you accidentally typed "Adam's Lies", rather than "Abraham's Lies".

Abraham told his servants: "after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He said that out of trust God could and would raise his son, Isaac, from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did. Afterward they worshiped, by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19), so Abraham did not lie as you claim.

Regarding Gen. 22:8, considering the context, the word "lamb" in your translation is meant to signify "sacrifice", just as the word "victim" in the following translation does as well: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son." And, just as Abraham said, God did provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:13), though he initially thought it was to be Isaac. So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.
SEG wrote:It's not sickening that he prevented his death...
Then, why did you initially say it was?
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:Do you really think that a creator has the right to murder and torture what he has created? If this works for your god, it should also work for a human creator.
Already answered.
Remind me then.
Re-read my posts.

----------
Generally speaking, can you think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or of a loved one, that would demonstrate one's trust in God to the extreme limit?
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

searchengineguy
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by searchengineguy » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:15 pm

This is my last post in this thread, as you are getting repetitive with unconvincing arguments. God wasn't specific.
God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son. Begotten wasn't mentioned when he first said it in Genesis, and even if it was, it doesn't say anything about any illegitimate or legitimate children. God was also inciting the torture and murder of Isaac, which would have caused him great fear of his life. This is child abuse of the greatest degree. To say that he might not have been a child or he didn't complain are feeble excuses.

Finally Abraham should have known that a kind, benevolent god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER ask him to commit such heinous crimes. Yet he does and Abraham should have passed the test by not complying. He didn't and got rewarded. This means Abraham knew the true nature of this cruel god who has no problem with human sacrifice. He also lied because he had no foreknowledge of god stopping his cruel demand when he told his slaves that they would be down again after they worship.

Now you can paste your unconvincing arguments all you like Claire, I'm done.
“One would go mad if one took the Bible seriously; but to take it seriously one must be already mad.”
Aleister Crowley

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Claire
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:28 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
SEG wrote:This is a baseless accusation. You should know better than this Moon!
It's a pattern I see over and over in your arguments. So lets see whether it is baseless. What do we know? 1. We know you lift a lot of 'your' arguments ready made from atheist websites. We have found you doing that again and again. So that part is not baseless. 2. We know you argue against things people are not saying, and have said repeatedly they are not saying. So that part is not baseless. 3. We know you often completely ignore the things people say to counter your arguments. So that is not baseless.I suspect this is often because you don't understand what people are saying to you and I think the kindest thing may be to put this down to functional illiteracy again.
Precisely, Moon.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:28 pm

Chapabel wrote:Time after time it has been demonstrated to this ignoramus that his claims were unfounded and false. But as Satan’s child he continues to put forth misinformation. Anyone trying to educate this pathetic poster is wasting their time.
Indeed it has been demonstrated.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
Posts: 1400
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:28 pm

.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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