God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:46 pm

SEG wrote:This is my last post in this thread, as you are getting repetitive with unconvincing arguments. God wasn't specific. God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son. Begotten wasn't mentioned when he first said it in Genesis, and even if it was, it doesn't say anything about any illegitimate or legitimate children. God was also inciting the torture and murder of Isaac, which would have caused him great fear of his life. This is child abuse of the greatest degree. To say that he might not have been a child or he didn't complain are feeble excuses.

Finally Abraham should have known that a kind, benevolent god that abhors human sacrifice would NEVER ask him to commit such heinous crimes. Yet he does and Abraham should have passed the test by not complying. He didn't and got rewarded. This means Abraham knew the true nature of this cruel god who has no problem with human sacrifice. He also lied because he had no foreknowledge of god stopping his cruel demand when he told his slaves that they would be down again after they worship.

Now you can paste your unconvincing arguments all you like Claire, I'm done.
You're repeating arguments I've already shut down, and I'll do it again:
Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:God's Lies
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Abraham humped his wife's slave who gave birth to his other son Ishmael
Only son as in only legitimate son at the time.
SEG wrote:God didn't say his only legitimate son, he said his ONLY son.
Depending on the translation of Gen 22:2, you'll either read "only son Isaac", or "only begotten son Isaac". The Greek word for "begotten" is "μονογενής" (monogenēs), meaning "only of its kind", or "sole heir". This applies to Isaac because he alone was the legitimate son that God promised Abraham, born from a barren wife (Gen. 17:15-19), whom He chose to establish His covenant, for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him (Gen. 17), and inherited Abraham's possessions (Genesis 25:5).

And, God and Abraham recognized Ishmael as a son, and he was blessed (Gen. 17:20/Gen. 17:23). Ishmael and his children were Abraham's posterity as well, because he was the father Isaac and Ishmael (Gen. 21:13/The Poem of the Man-God).

So, your claims God lied about Abraham having no other sons, and that Ishmael wasn't recognized as a son, nor valued, are false. As is your claim the word "begotten" isn't used in the KJV: Heb. 11:17
SEG wrote:Adam's Lies
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship,
He knew that Isaac would not be worshipping, he thought he would be cooking.
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
He knew that there would be no lamb offering and conspired with God to sacrifice his own son.
Note: In case you want to edit, I noticed you accidentally typed "Adam's Lies", rather than "Abraham's Lies".

Abraham told his servants: "after we have worshiped, will return to you" (Gen. 22:5). He said that out of trust God could and would raise his son, Isaac, from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19/Romans 4:18), because of the covenant (Gen. 17:19), and figuratively He did. Afterward they worshiped, by sacrificing the ram (Gen. 22:13), then returned to the servants (Gen. 22:19), so Abraham did not lie as you claim.

Regarding Gen. 22:8, considering the context, the word "lamb" in your translation is meant to signify "sacrifice", just as the word "victim" in the following translation does as well: "God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son." And, just as Abraham said, God did provide a sacrifice (Gen. 22:13), though he initially thought it was to be Isaac. So, Abraham did not lie as you claim.

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God and His command to Abraham

"He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will shew thee" (Gen. 22:2)
  • God was not tempting, or enticing Abraham to do wrong, rather testing him to see if he'd do what was right (trust and obey)
  • God was not instituting, or condoning child sacrifice. He detests it: Deut. 12:31, Lev. 20:2-5, Jer. 32:35, Ezek. 20:26, Isa. 57:4-5
  • God was not telling Abraham to do wrong. God has the right to take life, and could authorize one to do so in a particular case.
Why did God give this command?
It was for Abraham to demonstrate he trusted Him completely, and placed Him above all else, even his own son.

Wasn't it wrong for Abraham to obey the command?
No, because God has the right to give and take human life (Job 1:21/1 Samuel 2:6), therefore the right to command the death of Isaac, and it's not wrong to be obedient to God, and Abraham would've understood this.

While Abraham had already sacrificed his son in his heart, through his will to obey, he would've physically too had the angel sent by God not stayed his hand. If that hadn't happened, it wouldn't have been wrong of Abraham even then, for reasons explained.

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The Works of Abraham as enumerated by Jesus with regard to their nature and symbol:

"Abraham obeyed by going to the country pointed out to him by God, and is thus the symbol of a man who must be prepared to leave everything to go where God sends him.

Abraham was obliging with his brother's son, whom he allowed to choose the region he preferred, thus symbolizing respect for freedom of action, and the charitable mind we must have for our neighbor.

Abraham was humble after the predilection of God, Whom he honored in Mamre, always feeling he was mere nothing in comparison with the Most High, Who had spoken to him, a symbol of the place of reverential love man must always keep towards his God.

Abraham believed and obeyed also in the most difficult matters to believe and painful to accomplish, and he did not become selfish in order to be safe, but he prayed for the people of Sodom.

Abraham did not come to terms with the Lord, by requesting a reward for his manifold obedience, on the contrary, in order to honor Him to the very end, to the extreme limit, he sacrificed his beloved son to Him." -- The Poem of the Man-God

To conclude, it was necessary Abraham prove his faith through action: "His faith was made complete by what he did" (Jas. 2:21-23). Because of his actions, not only God but Abraham, his family and future generations knew he trusted God, treated Him as He deserves, and benefited from this.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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Claire
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Re: God and Abraham Exchange Lies and Mentally Abuse Isaac

Post by Claire » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:46 am

Claire wrote:Generally speaking, can you think of an act greater than sacrifice of oneself, or of a loved one, that would demonstrate one's trust in God to the extreme limit?
And, if you had an answer to this you would've given it.
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress" -- Prov. 21:23

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