Why God's Love is a Joke

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Claire
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Fri May 17, 2019 2:08 am

Chapabel wrote:Against my better judgment I decided to engage with you one more time. Unfortunately the results have been the same. You continue to post the same questions I have answered previously, you dismiss or ignore evidence I present, and you reveal how incredibly ignorant you are in basic Biblical doctrines. You make up stuff as you go along and I can’t tell if you’re being deceitful or you’re just plain stupid. I’m sorry but corresponding with you is a massive waste of time. Go pound sand.
I have to say you're ignorant of what a discussion entails. It isn't just each person presenting their argument, and a rebuttal to the other's once, or even a few times. Obviously, a debate has to die eventually, but you barely allow one to live.

Next, you say I "make up stuff" as I go along. What are you referring to?

In regards to me posting questions you say you've answered previously, are you referring to this: "So, why do you trust the negative reviews by Catholics?". If so, you haven't explained why, rather repeatedly denied trusting. But, you've been shown why you do, hence the reasking of the question.

As for your evidence, they were verses taken out of context, and you cited a source who did the same, as well as naturally concluded, based on nothing, that the book of Revelation is God's final word. That's why I dismiss them, but haven't ignored. Below I re-posted my rebuttals to your evidence that you haven't responded to. So, who's REALLY ignoring here?

In regards to Deut. 4:2, Prov. 30:6, and Rev. 22:18-19 you described: "Jesus personally is telling mankind to not add anything new to His word". So, do you acknowledge He's not forbidding Himself from adding?

Next, I noticed your source acknowledges, just as I have, that Rev. 22:18-19 refers to the book of Revelation: "These two warnings against additions and subtractions in their context are concerned specifically with the book of Revelation, and the primary emphasis is not on the Bible as a whole".

He or she went on to say the principal of the warning can be applied to the Bible as a whole, because the book of Revelation is the final revelation of God's word. But, that's a statement they just assume as fact. Just because it's the final book in the Bible, after being chosen by those who compiled the Bible centuries later, it does not mean God would not speak to humanity further after the book of Revelation was written.

In addition, they argued since further revelation is not intimated at the end of the NT, the "natural conclusion" is there's to be "no further voice speaking from heaven" until Jesus's return. Also, according to them: "God is surely capable of speaking plain words''. Even you've said: "When God has something to say to man, He does not imply what He means, He comes right out and says it". So, why is it we have to search some hidden message, or implied meaning in God's word, to tell us that Revelation completes the Bible in away that doesn't allow for further communication, or prophecy from God?
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:
Chapabel wrote:It is my belief that even though the Bible was not complete when Paul wrote to Timothy, it is complete today. It has been complete for over 1900 years and nothing else is needed to make a man complete in Christ.
You cited 2 Timothy 3:16-17 saying it meant the Bible, as a whole, is sufficient to make mankind perfect or complete, and that no further dictation is needed. If that were true, how could the aforementioned verses at the time be referring to completion during incompletion of the Bible?
How? In the same way Jesus said Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. The words of Christ had not been written down when He made that statement. So you study on that and you will discover for yourself how 2 Tim.3:16-17 was referring the the Bible we have today.
From the beginning of Matt. 24 until verse 35, Jesus was describing what will occur prior to His return, so ''my words shall not pass away'' was referring to what He had just spoken to them. And, 2 Timothy 3:16 ACTUALLY says: "All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable...", not that the Bible as we know it today is sufficient, and there's no need for further dictation from Jesus.

You've now not only misidentified the word "scripture" as "the Bible", added the word "sufficient", and thus new meanings where they don't belong in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, but have taken the verse Matt. 24:35 out of context. I've corrected these errors, and have to say 2 Tim.3:16-17 does not refer to the Bible as we know it today.
Chapabel wrote:You admit there is nothing missing in the Bible in regards to salvation. Therefore, there are no gaps that need to be filled in.
You're essentially saying all we need to know is what pertains to our salvation. What evidence is there for this? And, if it were true, why does the Bible consist of text that doesn't pertain to salvation?

If there are no gaps to be filled, why preach or give sermons to explain and provide context, or give commentary for verses, if the Bible is sufficient as is?
Chapabel wrote:Jesus said believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would teach believers all things they need to know (John 14). That’s why believers do not need the writings of MV.
Maria Valtorta is not teaching. What is the Holy Spirit teaching believers today if everything that's needed to be said ended with the book of Revelation?
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:So, why do you trust the negative reviews by Catholics?
I don't.
You've described the Catholic Church as the "world's largest cult", and therefore "couldn't care less what the Catholics believe", yet the multiple bad reviews by Catholics are partially why you reject Poem of the Man-God, and refuse to read it and discern for yourself:
Chapabel wrote:
Claire wrote:Why not read the Work and discern for yourself?
I don't need to. I've read the reviews. If a movie gets multiple bad reviews I won't waste time or money to see it. The Poem gets multiple bad reviews from the very church MV was part of. And besides, I have the Bible. I need nothing else.
So, you do trust the negative reviews by Catholics. Why?

Claire
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Fri May 17, 2019 7:19 pm

SEG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 pm
I noted that one of the reviews said,
Pope Pius XII said, "Every person should read this book."
Is there a citation that he said that in relation to MV?
The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".

You can read why he was referring to Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, here.

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SEG
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by SEG » Fri May 17, 2019 10:08 pm

Claire wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:19 pm
SEG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 pm
I noted that one of the reviews said,
Pope Pius XII said, "Every person should read this book."
Is there a citation that he said that in relation to MV?
The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".

You can read why he was referring to Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, here.
If the Pope said that, I suppose it DOES give the work more credence. Why don't other Christians support the Pope on this?
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

Claire
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 am

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am

Claire wrote:
SEG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 pm
I noted that one of the reviews said,

Pope Pius XII said, "Every person should read this book."

Is there a citation that he said that in relation to MV?
The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".

You can read why he was referring to Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, here.
SEG wrote:If the Pope said that, I suppose it DOES give the work more credence. Why don't other Christians support the Pope on this?
Because most Christians, even most Catholics, are unaware of the existence of Poem of the Man-God. Most Catholics are unaware due to internal politics within the Vatican, and the overzealous Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani who opposed, attempted to discredit, and prevent the dissemination of Maria Valtorta's writings. In addition, many protestants, like Chapabel, don't believe in modern day private revelations from God. They're even less inclined to believe a Catholic source for those revelations.

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Chapabel
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Chapabel » Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am

SEG wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:08 pm
Claire wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:19 pm
SEG wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 pm
I noted that one of the reviews said,
Is there a citation that he said that in relation to MV?
The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".

You can read why he was referring to Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, here.
If the Pope said that, I suppose it DOES give the work more credence. Why don't other Christians support the Pope on this?
“If” the Pope said it. As the Vicar of Christ, the Pope is supposed to be infallible. So in this case you have one Pope who is supposed to have endorsed the Poem and other Popes who oppose it. They can’t both be correct. If Pius did order it published, why wasn’t it universally accepted by the Catholic Church? If Pius did order it published, those around him knew he was an idiot and ignored him. Other Christians ignore the Pope because he is not Christ. He’s simply another man who makes mistakes just like everyone else.

Claire
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Claire » Sat May 18, 2019 5:46 pm

Chapabel wrote:
SEG wrote:
Claire wrote:The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".

You can read why he was referring to Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, here.
If the Pope said that, I suppose it DOES give the work more credence. Why don't other Christians support the Pope on this?
“If” the Pope said it. As the Vicar of Christ, the Pope is supposed to be infallible. So in this case you have one Pope who is supposed to have endorsed the Poem and other Popes who oppose it. They can’t both be correct. If Pius did order it published, why wasn’t it universally accepted by the Catholic Church? If Pius did order it published, those around him knew he was an idiot and ignored him. Other Christians ignore the Pope because he is not Christ. He’s simply another man who makes mistakes just like everyone else.
Chapabel, if you're going to educate others about the Catholic Church, and Maria Valtorta's writings, you'd do well to first set aside time to research properly. If you don't want to continue on as this uninformed, angry, anti-Catholic that is.

I suggest you start by learning about Papal Infallibility, then why Pope Pius XII DID say The Poem of the Man-God, or The Gospel As Revealed To Me, should be published here, and what followed here. And, Pius XII wasn't the ONLY Pope who endorsed it, so did Pope Paul VI. Cardinal Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict XVI, also gave permission for the Work to be published, when he was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly known as the Inquisition, in 1992, etc. For more names of officials who didn't oppose, visit this site. There's also Jean-François Lavère's book entitled: The Valtorta Enigma: A Fictionalized Life of Jesus?

Or, you can just leave matters concerning the Catholic Church and Maria Valtorta to me.

SEG, back to your question, as I said, it's because most Christians, even most Catholics, are unaware of the existence of Poem of the Man-God. Most Catholics are unaware due to internal politics within the Vatican, and the overzealous Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani who opposed, attempted to discredit, and prevent the dissemination of Maria Valtorta's writings. In addition, many protestants, like Chapabel, don't believe in modern day private revelations from God. They're even less inclined to believe a Catholic source for those revelations.

Rian
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Rian » Wed May 22, 2019 1:32 am

SEG wrote: I noted that one of the reviews said,
Pope Pius XII said, "Every person should read this book."
Is there a citation that he said that in relation to MV?
SEG wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:08 pm

The words of Pope Pius XII: "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are".
If the Pope said that, I suppose it DOES give the work more credence. Why don't other Christians support the Pope on this?
I don't see how you can get "Every person should read this book" out of what the pope said; do you? He's just saying go ahead and publish it, and he's not giving his opinion on whether or not it is of supernatural origin.

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SEG
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Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by SEG » Wed May 22, 2019 2:43 am

Rian wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:32 am
I don't see how you can get "Every person should read this book" out of what the pope said; do you? He's just saying go ahead and publish it, and he's not giving his opinion on whether or not it is of supernatural origin.
If all this about the pope is true, if I was a Christian then I probable would want to read it. He's the biggest mortal authority on Christianity isn't he? Don't get me wrong Rian, I don't believe a jot of it. I'm trying to figure out the Christian mindset on it.
Premise One: If a compassionate God exists, then he would do things just as a compassionate person would.
Premise Two: God doesn't do things as a compassionate person would.
Conclusion: Therefore, a compassionate God does not exist.

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Chapabel
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Why God's Love is a Joke

Post by Chapabel » Wed May 22, 2019 11:47 am

SEG wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:43 am
Rian wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:32 am
I don't see how you can get "Every person should read this book" out of what the pope said; do you? He's just saying go ahead and publish it, and he's not giving his opinion on whether or not it is of supernatural origin.
If all this about the pope is true, if I was a Christian then I probable would want to read it. He's the biggest mortal authority on Christianity isn't he? Don't get me wrong Rian, I don't believe a jot of it. I'm trying to figure out the Christian mindset on it.
Mortal authority? No, he has no authority at all over any believer. As a Christian I can tell you my mindset. He is just another man. No better and no less than everyone else. Also as a Christian I have no desire to read the writings of MV. We have the Bible to read and study in matters of faith and practice. If you want the opinion of someone who is not a born again believer then Claire is the one to consult.

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