Question for non-Christians.

[SEG]

If you believed Heaven and Hell existed, do you think what happens to non-Christians according to Chapabel or me is more likely?

Ah, thank you! It is so much clearer now. It would depend on who indoctrinated me, how much indoctrination that I received and how long it lasted. IOW my belief would depend on which church I attended and the level of indoctrination. It would be best for my parents to start young on me when I trusted them the most. My older siblings would need to be heavily indoctrinated as well to reinforce it. My schooling would need to be the same level of indoctrination with more authority figures jamming it down my throat. All my friends, relations and acquaintances could join in on the process.

Lastly my work environment would be filled with even more authority figures and workmates having exactly the same delusions and passing them onto me at work and later in the church. I would then be in a position of not just thinking, but KNOWING exactly whatever happens to me once I die.

Just like you and Chappy. Hope that helps.

[Claire]

In regards to eternal salvation and damnation, there's many different views in the world. But, I want to specifically address two different kinds. Below are brief summaries.

(i) There's people like fellow forum member Chapabel who say those who do not place Faith in Christ, despite choosing to live and teach others to live a life of charity with love, will "bust down the gates of hell" after they die.

(ii) There's people like me who say that to place Faith in love is to place Faith in The Lord for He is love. And, where there's sincere Faith in Him, His saving Grace can be allowed through. And, if a person sincerely doesn't believe in the existence of The Lord, or sincerely believes another deity exists, as long as they have Faith in love, they're still placing Faith in The One True God in a sense, for He is love. Therefore, He would not turn away from them. Hell is a place for hate and evil, and someone who doesn't identify themselves as Christian, but chooses to live the kind of life Jesus instructed all people, isn't evil that's deserving of eternity with evil incarnate and his demons.

Which belief do you think is more likely out of the two if Heaven and Hell exist?

I didn't understand the question...

If you believed Heaven and Hell existed, do you think what happens to non-Christians according to Chapabel or me is more likely?

Ah, thank you! It is so much clearer now. It would depend on who indoctrinated me, how much indoctrination that I received and how long it lasted. IOW my belief would depend on which church I attended and the level of indoctrination. It would be best for my parents to start young on me when I trusted them the most. My older siblings would need to be heavily indoctrinated as well to reinforce it. My schooling would need to be the same level of indoctrination with more authority figures jamming it down my throat. All my friends, relations and acquaintances could join in on the process.

Lastly my work environment would be filled with even more authority figures and workmates having exactly the same delusions and passing them onto me at work and later in the church. I would then be in a position of not just thinking, but KNOWING exactly whatever happens to me once I die.

Just like you and Chappy. Hope that helps.

There's no alternative agenda and I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything. But, I know the many of the atheists on this forum were once Christians themselves, have read the Bible, or have at least thoroughly studied Christianity. So, I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on regarding salvation and damnation as a non-Christian. I would like to hear from an outside perspective looking in.

To clarify, suppose you came to the belief at this moment that Heaven and Hell existed, and the way you came to this realization is irrelevant. I would just like to know which scenario of salvation seems likelier of the two - mine or Chapabel's?

[Claire]

Here's reasons why Claire and Chappy will never agree about their magical, intolerant religion:

Though we currently disagree on certain issues, if we both strive to love The Lord and others, then that's the two greatest things we have in common.

1. Claire believes in scriptures and traditions beyond the Bible, Chappy does not.

Yes, I do.

2. Claire thinks her church as the only true church with the pope as its leader, Chappy does not.

Yes/no. I've said that Catholicism goes back to the beginning of Christianity, and has carried the teachings and traditions of Christ for centuries. As well as Jesus telling Peter that he will be the rock upon which His Church will rest. And, "Church" here means the Christian population in total, and "Catholic" literally means "universal". Now, there are other denominations who disagree with this, and they will believe as they choose on that point. And, I do not think that any of those denominations are completely wrong or completely devoid of The Truth, but because of the direct line to Christ, the Catholic Church has a clearer idea of The Truth, and a more authentic connection. There have been plenty of bad moments and atrocities within The Catholic Church in times when many Church leaders lost sight of The Truth. But, that unbroken tradition and apostolic line to Christ means The Church is able to correct itself. And, our leader is The Lord, The Pope is supposed to be a representative of Him on this Earth. In much the same way any clergyman represents our Lord to some degree. The Pope is the top clergyman. As for Papal Infallibility, it does not mean that he is infallible in all things that they say or do.

3. Claire says only men can become priests, Chappy says women and transgenders may as well.

No, I've never said that.

4. Claire thinks that bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. Chappy does not and thinks any baptized person can lead the Lord's Supper.

No, I've never said the bread/wine physically becomes flesh/blood.

5. Claire has 7 sacraments, Chappy only allows two, baptism and the Eucharist

Yes, there's 7.

6. Claire worships Mary and saints, Chappy does not.

No, I do not worship her and saints, nor do most Catholics, if not all. This is one of the common misconceptions of Catholicism.

7. Both Claire and Chappy think that bumping rude bits should only happen after a holy marriage. Claire goes one step further and thinks priests should never bump rude bits, but that fails dismally and ruins lives (my own comment).

No, I've never said priests shouldn't have sex.

So, you got 1 1/2 out of 7 correct.

[SEG]

There's no alternative agenda and I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything. But, I know the many of the atheists on this forum were once Christians themselves, have read the Bible, or have at least thoroughly studied Christianity. So, I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on regarding salvation and damnation as a non-Christian. I would like to hear from an outside perspective looking in.

To clarify, suppose you came to the belief at this moment that Heaven and Hell existed, and the way you came to this realization is irrelevant. I would just like to know which scenario of salvation seems likelier of the two - mine or Chapabel's?

Claire the only way I would believe about heaven and hell is if I was like you and got indoctrinated. I can't think of any way you could instantly believe something like that, you would have to be influenced by other people. Chap has been taught that unbelievers go straight to hell, and he fell for it hook, line and sinker. You also have been brainwashed into thinking as you do, though it is definitely more tolerant than his dogmatic stance on it.

I don't believe any of it not because other people have jammed it down my throat, I disbelieve it as it is just not credible to me on many lines of thought. Dead things stay dead. That's the way the universe works.

[SEG]

3. Claire says only men can become priests, Chappy says women and transgenders may as well.

No, I've never said that.

Maybe not but women can't become priests in the Catholic church.

4. Claire thinks that bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. Chappy does not and thinks any baptized person can lead the Lord's Supper.

No, I've never said the bread/wine physically becomes flesh/blood.

I thought all Catholics believed that? Transubstantiation is part of your doctrine isn't it?

6. Claire worships Mary and saints, Chappy does not.

No, I do not worship her and saints, nor do most Catholics, if not all. This is one of the common misconceptions of Catholicism.

Venerate then?

7. Both Claire and Chappy think that bumping rude bits should only happen after a holy marriage. Claire goes one step further and thinks priests should never bump rude bits, but that fails dismally and ruins lives (my own comment).

No, I've never said priests shouldn't have sex.

Ok you think that RC priests should have sex?

[Claire]

There's no alternative agenda and I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything. But, I know the many of the atheists on this forum were once Christians themselves, have read the Bible, or have at least thoroughly studied Christianity. So, I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on regarding salvation and damnation as a non-Christian. I would like to hear from an outside perspective looking in.

To clarify, suppose you came to the belief at this moment that Heaven and Hell existed, and the way you came to this realization is irrelevant. I would just like to know which scenario of salvation seems likelier of the two - mine or Chapabel's?

Claire the only way I would believe about heaven and hell is if I was like you and got indoctrinated. I can't think of any way you could instantly believe something like that, you would have to be influenced by other people. Chap has been taught that unbelievers go straight to hell, and he fell for it hook, line and sinker. You also have been brainwashed into thinking as you do, though it is definitely more tolerant than his dogmatic stance on it.

I don't believe any of it not because other people have jammed it down my throat, I disbelieve it as it is just not credible to me on many lines of thought. Dead things stay dead. That's the way the universe works.

My question is hypothetical, do you know what that means?

[SEG]

My question is hypothetical, do you know what that means?

Yep

[Claire]

There's no alternative agenda and I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything. But, I know the many of the atheists on this forum were once Christians themselves, have read the Bible, or have at least thoroughly studied Christianity. So, I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on regarding salvation and damnation as a non-Christian. I would like to hear from an outside perspective looking in.

To clarify, suppose you came to the belief at this moment that Heaven and Hell existed, and the way you came to this realization is irrelevant. I would just like to know which scenario of salvation seems likelier of the two - mine or Chapabel's?

Claire the only way I would believe about heaven and hell is if I was like you and got indoctrinated. I can't think of any way you could instantly believe something like that, you would have to be influenced by other people. Chap has been taught that unbelievers go straight to hell, and he fell for it hook, line and sinker. You also have been brainwashed into thinking as you do, though it is definitely more tolerant than his dogmatic stance on it.

I don't believe any of it not because other people have jammed it down my throat, I disbelieve it as it is just not credible to me on many lines of thought. Dead things stay dead. That's the way the universe works.

My question is hypothetical, do you know what that means?

Yep

What does it mean?

[SEG]

Claire the only way I would believe about heaven and hell is if I was like you and got indoctrinated. I can't think of any way you could instantly believe something like that, you would have to be influenced by other people. Chap has been taught that unbelievers go straight to hell, and he fell for it hook, line and sinker. You also have been brainwashed into thinking as you do, though it is definitely more tolerant than his dogmatic stance on it.

I don't believe any of it not because other people have jammed it down my throat, I disbelieve it as it is just not credible to me on many lines of thought. Dead things stay dead. That's the way the universe works.

My question is hypothetical, do you know what that means?

Yep

What does it mean?

*yawn*

[Claire]

So far no one seems to understand what a hypothetical question is.