If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

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SEG
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If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by SEG » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:59 am

Jesus was supposed to be "King of the Jews". What went wrong? If the Jewish people believed in Yahweh, believed in the scriptures and in miracles, why didn’t they believe God raised Jesus from the dead? Plus they have never believed in The Trinity! They should have been eyewitnesses to the "fact" of his resurrection, yet they call him out as a false messiah and a heretic.
Oneness and indivisibility of God

See also: God in Judaism, Shema Yisrael, and Shituf
In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[7] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God. The Jerusalem Talmud (Ta'anit 2:1) states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."
What do Christians say about this? The Trinity is a central faith of Christians, yet Jesus never explained it in the the NT. In fact, it's never mentioned there at all. The concept was made up centuries later. This is a clear indication that their religion is politically motivated and man made.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:15 pm

When you say Jews have never believed in the Trinity are you talking about the race or the religion? If you are talking about the race then lots of people of Jewish ancestry have come to believe in the trinity and you are simply wrong. If you are talking about the religion then you need to understand that the religion that was developed after Christianity on the basis pharisaic Judaism has made the rejection of Christian teaching a central part of its tenets, so it would be bizarre if you did find it to be the same as Christianity in the respects where it has stressed its difference.

I think a comparison can be made between the concept of trinity and the Jewish concept of the Messiah. The word messiah is used in the Jewish Scriptures but it is not used in a technical sense to refer to a particular person. The Encyclopedia Judaica describes it as a post scriptural doctrine. Yet most Jews do believe in the Messiah based on the teachings of the scriptures. Therefore they should have no problem with the idea that scriptures can provide the basic material for a doctrine not explicitly taught there. I would say the reason this kind of thing happens is that new idea tend not to appear fully formed but to emerge on the edge of awareness only later to be formalised.

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SEG
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by SEG » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:40 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:15 pm
When you say Jews have never believed in the Trinity are you talking about the race or the religion?
You're going down the wrong rabbit hole. I'm talking about the Jews that supposedly were eyewitnesses to Jesus and were his followers. Why didn't they get told this very important aspect of a Triune god from God incarnated in human form (demi-god?) himself?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 am

SEG wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:40 pm
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:15 pm
When you say Jews have never believed in the Trinity are you talking about the race or the religion?
You're going down the wrong rabbit hole. I'm talking about the Jews that supposedly were eyewitnesses to Jesus and were his followers. Why didn't they get told this very important aspect of a Triune god from God incarnated in human form (demi-god?) himself?
Then why include quotes from later Jewish writers? I already answered that question. You are starting from a modernist dictation theory of revelation and asking why everything in early Christianity does not fit with that.

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SEG
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by SEG » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:18 am

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 am
Then why include quotes from later Jewish writers? I already answered that question. You are starting from a modernist dictation theory of revelation and asking why everything in early Christianity does not fit with that.
Ok, let's just narrow it down to the earliest Jewish witnesses of Jesus, Moon. Why do you think they didn’t believe God raised Jesus from the dead? They were right there with him, yet they never believed he was resurrected and had no belief in The Trinity. Why would Jesus never have explained it to them and why didn't it get a mention in their earliest writings or the NT?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:18 am
Ok, let's just narrow it down to the earliest Jewish witnesses of Jesus, Moon. Why do you think they didn’t believe God raised Jesus from the dead? They were right there with him, yet they never believed he was resurrected
Not sure who you are talking about here. Which persons do you say were witnesses to the resurrection and did not believe it happened?
and had no belief in The Trinity. Why would Jesus never have explained it to them and why didn't it get a mention in their earliest writings or the NT?
What makes you think Jesus should have known about the trinity? As you say this doctrine developed much later. Are you confusing orthodox Christianity with Appolinarianism which believes Jesus has no human soul, and hence no human limitations of knowledge, but is simply God in a human body?

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SEG
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by SEG » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Not sure who you are talking about here. Which persons do you say were witnesses to the resurrection and did not believe it happened?
The Jewish people around him that weren't disciples.
and had no belief in The Trinity. Why would Jesus never have explained it to them and why didn't it get a mention in their earliest writings or the NT?
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
What makes you think Jesus should have known about the trinity? As you say this doctrine developed much later.
His omniscience.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Are you confusing orthodox Christianity with Appolinarianism which believes Jesus has no human soul, and hence no human limitations of knowledge, but is simply God in a human body?
No, but thanks for introducing me to this term.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm

SEG wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:59 pm
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Not sure who you are talking about here. Which persons do you say were witnesses to the resurrection and did not believe it happened?
The Jewish people around him that weren't disciples.
I doubt there would be a single reason, you could probably list dozens if you thought about it, and which reason applied would depend largely on which other beliefs they held. But factors could include things like expectations around the messiah and resurrection, role in the political system, attitude to the Roman occupation and many more.
and had no belief in The Trinity. Why would Jesus never have explained it to them and why didn't it get a mention in their earliest writings or the NT?
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
What makes you think Jesus should have known about the trinity? As you say this doctrine developed much later.
His omniscience.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Are you confusing orthodox Christianity with Appolinarianism which believes Jesus has no human soul, and hence no human limitations of knowledge, but is simply God in a human body?
No, but thanks for introducing me to this term.
well then, he is not omniscient in his human nature, to say he was would be Appolinarianism.

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SEG
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by SEG » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:16 pm

Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
I doubt there would be a single reason, you could probably list dozens if you thought about it, and which reason applied would depend largely on which other beliefs they held. But factors could include things like expectations around the messiah and resurrection, role in the political system, attitude to the Roman occupation and many more.
But he appeared before 500 after the Romans crucified him to death. Surely they were mostly Jewish and spread the word around? That news would have spread like wildfire far and wide. Or do you think that story was merely a theological construct?
and had no belief in The Trinity. Why would Jesus never have explained it to them and why didn't it get a mention in their earliest writings or the NT?
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
What makes you think Jesus should have known about the trinity? As you say this doctrine developed much later.
His omniscience.
Moonwood the Hare wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 pm
well then, he is not omniscient in his human nature, to say he was would be Appolinarianism.
Or maybe his Monophysitism?
Why would his God self and his Holy Ghost self want to keep his incarnate human self from knowing that his human self was not just his human self but also at the same time his God self and Holy Ghost self? It seems pretty selfish to me.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Moonwood the Hare
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Re: If Jewish Eyewitnesses Didn't Believe in Jesus...

Post by Moonwood the Hare » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:08 pm

SEG wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:16 pm
But he appeared before 500 after the Romans crucified him to death. Surely they were mostly Jewish and spread the word around? That news would have spread like wildfire far and wide. Or do you think that story was merely a theological construct?
I don't find arguments about what should have happened or what must have happened in the face of unusual events very convincing. They always seem to me to stem from a very simplistic assessment of both human psychology and epistemology. You are assuming that in any culture if a sufficiently unusual event happens it must compel belief even at second hand. I don't see any grounds for saying this must be the case.

Why would his God self and his Holy Ghost self want to keep his incarnate human self from knowing that his human self was not just his human self but also at the same time his God self and Holy Ghost self? It seems pretty selfish to me.
You are confusing two issues here. I am saying that in so far as Jesus is aware of his deity and his special relationship to the father, this awareness would not need to be couched in the language and conceptual framework of a later theology, not that he would have no awareness of this at all.

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