Can a true Christian lose faith?

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Can a true Christian lose faith?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:54 pm

Yes
8
67%
No
4
33%
Maybe (explain)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 12

Postby spongebob » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:58 pm

Emery wrote:
This seems pretty fatalistic, Mike. Two questions:

1) Why create the unelect?
2) Why punish the unelect?

-Emery


Because, capt'n, I've got the powerrrr. :banana:
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby mikedsjr » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:42 am

Emery wrote:
If a person is not glorified, then they are not justified.
If a person is not justified, then they are not called.
If a person is not called, then they are not predestined.
If a person is not predestined, then they are not foreknown by God.


This seems pretty fatalistic, Mike. Two questions:

1) Why create the unelect?
2) Why punish the unelect?

-Emery

1) Because they sin.
2) Because they sin.

Frankly, I haven't read but one book on calvinism, so I am not completely up on it, though I do agree with a lot of it.

Before I reply to fatalism response, I would like you to tell me whether what i wrote is a representation of those verses?
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Postby spongebob » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:57 am

mikedsjr wrote:
Emery wrote:
If a person is not glorified, then they are not justified.
If a person is not justified, then they are not called.
If a person is not called, then they are not predestined.
If a person is not predestined, then they are not foreknown by God.


This seems pretty fatalistic, Mike. Two questions:

1) Why create the unelect?
2) Why punish the unelect?

-Emery

1) Because they sin.
2) Because they sin.

Frankly, I haven't read but one book on calvinism, so I am not completely up on it, though I do agree with a lot of it.

Before I reply to fatalism response, I would like you to tell me whether what i wrote is a representation of those verses?


Makes sense in a "dark Sith Lord" kind of way. :smt029 He creates creatures to die and suffer eternally---just for the fun of watching them squirm. I reject this nonsense out of hand!!!
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby Emery » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:03 am

Yes Mike, it does seem a fair interpretation of those verses.

But why is "they sin" a reason to create the unelect? Having this foreknowledge, seems the merciful thing would be for God not to create such individuals in the first place.
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Postby koin4life » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:23 am

I was reading yesterday in The Case for Faith, and the person being interviewed had a good explaination for this. He asked the question, what would be better, having one person that doesn't know God and through their actions they lead 4 other people to God? (The person was a horrible role model that made the others want to follow God.) Versus, not creating the person, and having the other 4 people never come to God.

I believe his answer deals with predestination some, but only to explain it, I don't think he (nor I) believes in predestination. I believe everyone has an equal shot at knowing and loving God from birth.
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Postby whoosanightowl » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:50 am

I believe everyone has an equal shot at knowing and loving God from birth.

Knowing and loving whichever God they are taught about from birth, sure. But knowing and loving the God of Christianity, no, everyone does not have an "equal shot".
Indoctrination in children is very strong and usually will yield a life long belief in that theology. That's why it's so important to get them while they are young, because once they reach adulthood, the chance for them converting is very slim in comparison.

what would be better, having one person that doesn't know God and through their actions they lead 4 other people to God? (The person was a horrible role model that made the others want to follow God.) Versus, not creating the person, and having the other 4 people never come to God.

So what about the billions of people in this world whose children will most likely never be led to "the Christian" God? Why are they being created in the first place knowing what their chances are?
Also, according to this reasoning, it would seem that Christian parents should have as many children as possible to add the the list of those who will know their God and can further his kingdom.
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Postby mikedsjr » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 am

Emery, I'll answer yours later.

The issues you bringing brought up now, IMO, are big picture model issue that that can be viewed from the beginning of the human race and start there, and be dealt with at any time in history. And if you want me to give my model on it, then I will start a different thread, instead of answering it here. My big picture model of man is incomplete. I'm still working on it, but it might help me develope it.
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Postby spongebob » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:40 pm

koin4life wrote:I was reading yesterday in The Case for Faith, and the person being interviewed had a good explaination for this. He asked the question, what would be better, having one person that doesn't know God and through their actions they lead 4 other people to God? (The person was a horrible role model that made the others want to follow God.) Versus, not creating the person, and having the other 4 people never come to God.

I believe his answer deals with predestination some, but only to explain it, I don't think he (nor I) believes in predestination. I believe everyone has an equal shot at knowing and loving God from birth.


I think that "explanation" is crazy. It sounds more like a "rationalization" to me. Christians often offer nonsensical "rationalizations" for their faith. This is the inherent flaw in claiming faith as the reason for believing in a philosphy instead of evidence or rational thinking. I don't find the faithful person bad or stupid or lesser, but just using an inferior process to guide their life.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby I'mAlsoAnAtheist » Sat May 13, 2006 11:22 am

I haven't read the posts previous to this in this topic since I don't have the time
But I'll post my opinion on the question on "can a true Christian lose faith?"
I say yes because that's what Dan Barker did
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