Does Atheism harm the fabric of America?

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Does Atheism harm the fabric of America?

Poll ended at Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:48 pm

No, America wasn't created for Christians
9
90%
Maybe, because non-religious people are bad
0
No votes
Yes, because America was created for Christians
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

Does Atheism harm the fabric of America?

Postby spongebob » Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:48 pm

Let's hear it, what do you think?
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby koin4life » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:41 am

I think an option is missing that I would pick. My answer would be yes, because the morals and values aren't in line with a healthy society.

As an example, I think atheists would tend to be okay with abortion more than the average American, and that is because more value is placed on the life that is currently there (mother) as opposed to the life that hasn't grown yet (baby).

I know a lot of people on this board would argue against that, and I think that it is the exception to the rule rather than the norm.
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Postby spongebob » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:13 am

koin4life wrote:I think an option is missing that I would pick. My answer would be yes, because the morals and values aren't in line with a healthy society.

As an example, I think atheists would tend to be okay with abortion more than the average American, and that is because more value is placed on the life that is currently there (mother) as opposed to the life that hasn't grown yet (baby).

I know a lot of people on this board would argue against that, and I think that it is the exception to the rule rather than the norm.


Ouch! That cut deep. :smt105 Actually, that sounded like a resounding #2, koin (sorry about that norton). Sure you don't want to change your vote?

I agree with you on the abortion issue, mostly at least. But how does abortion harm the nation? And what other morals and values are not healthy?
Last edited by spongebob on Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stickmangrit » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:12 am

sponge, that was koin you responded to, not Norton.

and as for abortion, i agree with Clinton on this one. it should be legal, but rare. in instances of rape and/or the potential death of the mother, it should be allowed. however, if you were too stupid to wrap your piece, or to make your boyfriend do so, these are the consequences of your actions. i'm beginning to support government enforced minimums for # of children in families that are unable to support the number they already have (and not by abortion, but by tube-tying), as i have seen far too many mothers with five or six unrully children living off a diet of EBT provided chocolate and sodas. diabetes is gonna wipe most of America out like a plague.
I see as much misery outta them movin' to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm.
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Postby koin4life » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:54 am

Stick, I think you meant a maximum number of children. I don't think government enforcing people to get "fixed" is right, I think a better solution would be to offer a tax benefit to people if they fall within the limits. If you are rich enough to have 100 kids, you should be allowed to (although I doubt your wife would be too happy).

My difference than 2 would be that atheists aren't necessarily bad people. In my opinion, they are misguided (but what does my opinion matter? :D ) but as this site has proven, atheists can still be very good people. My point was that even though an individual may be good, the total of those individuals may not be good. An example is abortion. Many people say they would never have an abortion, but they would support others to have it. Because of this line of thinking, there may be 40% of the population that support it, versus 20% that would support it if it meant they would have one (numbers are made up to make the point).
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Postby stickmangrit » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:00 am

i did mean a maximum, and i meant it for people on welfare who thunk out unloved, undernourished children by the litter in order to get a bigger foodstamp bonus. that kind of crap should be stopped.
I see as much misery outta them movin' to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm.
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Postby koin4life » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:07 am

I agree stick, the question is how do you do that? I think an economic incentive is about the only thing the government could legitimately do. Not even pay the families money, but just have them cut taxes. I think certain things should be tax-break worthy, and that taxes should be determined based on what you buy, not what you earn. That way, the people that buy more stuff, gets taxed more than those that don't.

I think certain tax breaks could apply to the following situations:

1) Any military service (your tax break is proportional to your service) Those in the military 20 years pay less than those in it for 5 years.
2) Donations (the more you give, the bigger tax break you give).
3) Employers (if you meet certain requirements for your employees, you receive a tax-break for the company). Such as paying for an employee to advance their education.
4) Adoptive Parents. This one would probably be the toughest to do, because people may adopt kids just to get a tax break. But, if a system was in place such that responsible parents were only allowed to adopt, then I think they should get a tax-break for it. (This may already be the case, I just don't have any kids of my own to tell the difference).
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Postby stickmangrit » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:51 am

the problem is that many of the economic incentives you discuss are already in place, but the people on welfare simply don't care. tax incentives don't mean much if your entire income is based on government welfare. here in SC, they've actually implemented a rather interesting method. if you're on welfare, and you have a child, you have to choose within so many days whether or not you plan to have any more children, under the penalty of having your welfare revoked. if you decide no, the gov't will pay to have your tubes tied. needless to say, most new mothers fresh out of the "joy" of childbirth aren't exactly itching to have another kid.

does the method prey upon the post-childbirth state of mind? yes. is this manipulative and deceptive? yes. is this nescessary behavior in a culture that seems to be pre-ocuppied with ignorance and fornicating? absolutely.
I see as much misery outta them movin' to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm.
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Postby spongebob » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:32 am

Ok, so more atheists are likely to support abortion. That's a likely possibility. But why is abortion bad for the nation?

And what other values do atheists tend to portray that are unhealthy for the nation?
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby koin4life » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:51 am

And what other values do atheists tend to portray that are unhealthy for the nation?


Good question, how about we have a little poll, just fill in yes or no next to if you think it is acceptable or not acceptable.

1) Extramarital affairs
2) Getting Drunk
3) Doing drugs
4) Abortion
5) Gambling
6) Have sex while not married
7) Homosexuality
8) Human Cloning
9) Profanity
10) Prostitution
11) Polygamy
12) Downloading Copyrighted music

These are in no order, I put them up as I thought of them. Let me know if there are some others I can add.
Last edited by koin4life on Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby narsil » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:39 pm

I voted yes, though to say harm would be a bit much, I'm not sure. Our nation was founded on a Christian worldview, I know you'll disagree. But I am speaking of the culture of the day. A culture is a shared perspective on life, the world, one's history, and the how to meet the existential questions of life. Needless to say that a shift away from a Christian foundation would result in (has already resulted) in a dramtic shift in culture. And obviously I think that a secular government based on a Christian worldview is the best way, but I am not so convinced that an Atheist culture is the end of the world. Ethics and morality can be argeed upon. Like when Dan Quail (everyone's favorite punching bag) said something about what he thought was wrong with poor people, just to be laughed at, and then quoted years later in Time as "Dan Quail was right". His premise was validated when someone showed that you are 90% more likely to be under the poverty line if you don't finish high school, or if you have a baby before you're 16, or a baby out of a marriage. Yeah, maybe Christian values, but also practical ones. In order for me to not be worried about an Athestic shift in cultural, I would need to see a more meaningful and clear and consistent message from such people on ethics, morality, meaning, and how it is to live a life characterized by such values. The problem is that I'm not sure you can, and even if you can clearly define that message, I don't think that there is that something in atheism that helps you or motivates you to live like you ought, they just say that you ought to.

I don't think that was too harsh, was it? Good question though.

EDIT: Oh, I don't think that Amercia was created for Christians, just by them, or at the very least, their worldview. :D
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Postby Atheist37 » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:23 pm

koin4life wrote:1.) Extramarital affairs
2.) Getting Drunk
3.) Doing drugs
4.) Abortion
5.) Gambling
6.) Have sex while not married
7.) Homosexuality
8.) Human Cloning
9.) Profanity

Currently there are no laws against any of these except perhaps 3., but you didn't explicitly state "illegal drugs". I can think of situations where any of the above are acceptable, and also situations where any of them would not be acceptable. I can provide details if you're really interested.

The most acceptable behaviors you have listed: sex while not married, and profanity. (Profanity being less acceptable). The least acceptable are extra-marital affairs and doing drugs. (Affairs being less acceptable).

Here's my list of "sins" that are currently illegal - what's your opinion of these?
1. Prostitution
2. Polygamy
3. Growing marijuana for personal use
4. Driving over 80mph on the interstate
5. Public nudity
6. Downloading pirated music

I personally would not complain if any of these laws were abolished. But uploading pirated music, now that's another story!
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Postby spongebob » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:41 pm

koin4life wrote:
Good question, how about we have a little poll, just fill in yes or no next to if you think it is acceptable or not acceptable.

1) Extramarital affairs
2) Getting Drunk
3) Doing drugs
4) Abortion
5) Gambling
6) Have sex while not married
7) Homosexuality
8) Human Cloning
9) Profanity



Actually, my question was intended to get you to reveal what "bad" behaviors you think atheists are doing that are unhealthy for America. All of these activities are currently being engaged in by Christians, with the possible exception of #8. And with the exception of #1, I don't see any direct correlation between these behaviors and an unhealthy America.

#9 is merely a reflection of personal taste and possibly manners. 6 & 7 are culturally based.

#8 is interesting. While I have no hard and fast position on cloning, I'd like to understand what you find objectionable about it. There is a great possibility that human cloning can be used to provide a steril couple with a child from their own biological information. That seems pretty "good" to me. Now if you're concerned about armies of Hitler clones, I think you can rest easy, that's pretty science fictionesque.

I agree with most of what Atheist37 said about the illegal behaviors, with the exception of public nudity. Unfortunately, not everyone was created physically equal... :smt041
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Postby spongebob » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:43 pm

narsil wrote:I voted yes, though to say harm would be a bit much, I'm not sure. Our nation was founded on a Christian worldview, I know you'll disagree.


You have no idea, narsil. We would probably need a whole new forum...
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Postby koin4life » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:13 pm

I would say there are laws against getting drunk (public intoxication) and gambling (not legal in some states). But, I think all of these can be bad behaviors for various reasons.
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