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Re: What is 'designed'?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:09 pm
by spongebob
darkumbra wrote:Then they a) don't understand the concepts/rules that drive water to crystallize it a particular way... OR b) They choose to ignore the 'science' behind the formation of crystals.

And... given how relatively simple the process? They are practicing intellectual dishonesty by not accepting that what is happening is perfectly natural. For these types of folks? I reserve the right to call them idiots.


Yep, you're right, even though they often have a degree in engineering (I know someone personally). This is the self-disillusionment I often talk about. It's a conversation ender.

Re: What is 'designed'?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:24 pm
by whoosanightowl
Excellent points. Do ID'ers ever focus only on the (appearance/inference of) "design" underlying the processes and forces? My suspicion is that they wouldn't limit their claims to the underlying processes and forces only, since that would take away their claims of a post-creational, personal, purposeful, "volitional" god that intervenes in the day-to-day happenings of the universe. Deists would probably be fine with that, but not theists, huh?

I wonder what Sue thinks about all this - from a deistic perspective....

Hi Jim! :smt006 :smt007 Happy Valentines Day!
Sorry it's taking me such a long time to catch up on all these discussion boards, but I'm working on it! 6 months is a long time to be away, with only occasional opportunities to check in. But I'm finally connected to the world again! Woohoo!
I was also confused by the term "designed", but I think I understand NHB's definition of it now; not designed as with intent or purpose, but designed in the way science can explain how something happens within the laws of nature.
My personal views as a (agnostic) Deist is that the "creator" brought the elements of the universe into existence as well as the laws which guide it, but I don't think "it" has taken an active part in what's happened since the initial creation. I would not call this entity intelligent either, especially since most of the universe appears to have no greater purpose. Except for life on this lone planet, which I chalk up to nothing more than luck on our part, it all seems rather random.
Sue
PS. As for the ice crystal shapes that are seen frozen on windows, that's the artwork of Jack Frost, of course!

Re: What is 'designed'?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:29 am
by Atheist37
As an engineer and designer, I've come to the conclusion that "intelligent" designers are far inferior to the natural processes and systems that emerge from physical laws. In fact I now lean toward the Platonic notion that knowledge is the same as perception -- that our attempt to design anything is successful only inasmuch as we shape the design to how it must naturally exist, not as we demand or will it into existence.

If you have a couple of free hours, read (or re-read?) Theaetetus from the Platonic dialogs:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/plato/theaetet.htm

Creativity, then, must be the opposite of design. Anything we create that is truly novel and original does not emerge from natural law. Take stop-motion animation for example, or 3D movies, (the movie Coraline for example). The figures appear to move of their own volition, and the flat movie screen appears to have depth, but only by fooling our senses.

Now I've gone and confused myself... Reading Plato will do that.