marcuspnw wrote:But aren't there scriptures that back each of these ideas?
Pseudonym wrote: The only thing remaining is to explain why exclusivism became the majority position, despite the mountain of evidence against it. The best answer I have, unfortunately, quite cynical: Exclusivism is far more politically useful than the alternatives. Any leader who wanted to use Christianity for political ends would naturally encourage exclusivism (and those who advocate it) even if the theological argument for it was weaker.
marcuspnw wrote:Given the waves of persecution that Christians experienced, wouldn't exclusivism appeal to the persecuted? Wouldn't it help them "stay the course" and who could fault them for a desire for justice from their oppressors?
Out of such heavenly visions, is it not inevitable to dream up more ghastly tortures for the wicked, the traitors?
marcuspnw wrote:Anyway, I am probably veering far off course but I enjoy this type of discussion/speculation. My apologies.
mitchellmckain wrote:those who hear the word of God and believe in Christ will be the only ones who go to heaven. No, this is neither neccessary nor sufficient. There are no magical belief by which we can save ourselves. That we believe in Christ may or may not be a manifestation of a saving relationship with Him. Likewise the rejection of what some Christians are saying or the rejection of any sort of belief, may or may not be a manifestation of a rejection of God Himself.
mikedsjr wrote:mitchellmckain wrote:those who hear the word of God and believe in Christ will be the only ones who go to heaven. No, this is neither neccessary nor sufficient. There are no magical belief by which we can save ourselves. That we believe in Christ may or may not be a manifestation of a saving relationship with Him. Likewise the rejection of what some Christians are saying or the rejection of any sort of belief, may or may not be a manifestation of a rejection of God Himself.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
....fyi....no one can do verse 5....all are sinners in God's sight......
6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
mitchellmckain wrote:No I will not choose one of your answers just as I do not accept your definitions of these terms. So I will address each option and each definition seperately.
Thats right Mitchell is authority on religious definitions. I heard the Pope and Billy Graham answers to Mitchells Dictionary of Theolgical Words. LOL
Universalism: No, people are often quite stubborn in their insistence on torturing themselves, avoiding what is best for them, and choosing death over life.
You keep asserting this without evidence. But in reality majority of people will do anything to get out of death and they will certainly go to any legnths to avoid pain. While people might avoid what MITCHELL thinks is best for them, most people look for immedated relief of pain.
God loves everybody and He's not going to send anyone to hell. Yes, that is correct. Hell is created and chosen by the people who inhabit it.
Actually the bible is specific that God sends people there. No where does the bible say people would chose to go there. You cannot chose, something that is invisible. I can't see hell, i have no evidence that it exist nor do i have any evidence of its creator. Your statement mitchell is nothing more than a christian platitude. I'm so tired of canned and trite answers. No one would chose to go to hell if they know its as bad as it says it is. The problem you have is you can't accept the fact that people are free from fear that Christianity loves to poision this world with. And once your free from the fear of hell, your free to acutally use your mind fully.
Religious Pluralism: Yes, the diversity of human thought, culture and religion is a work of God.
In other post you've said that Christianity is not a religion. So now i'm confused is religion good or not Mitchell. And why would god great many religions that contradict each other. This is the silliest belief in the world.
All sincere religious people go to heaven. No, religions do not save people.
agreed, religions do not save people. And a relationship with Jesus also is not going to save you either.
Annihilationism: No, the spirit is eternal. Spiritual death is not an end to existence.
Evidence of a spirit outside of religion?
those who reject Christ will just be no more Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. But I do not believe this has anything to do with whether one accepts certain beliefs and doctrines.
Sure it does mitchell says it right there, you just don't want to accpect that Jesus was an exclusive bigot. he also called non-jews dogs, Jesus was 100% jewish!
inclusivism: Yes, I believe in an open set model of Christians ministry, where it is not a matter of some membership by which one has it made, but a matter of choosing every day what direction one moves in according to what one understands about what is right and wrong. Salvation is a matter of God reaching out to His children wherever they are at and whatever they believe to help them to either turn their life around or steer it in a better direction.
People don't turn their life around by using people as a crutch they do by taking responsiblity for themselves and also believeing that they are worth something.
those who don't accept Christ on earth, will stand before God and get another chance. No, the connections we make in life are crucial, because there is simply no way in which new connections can be made after death. In death one looses the traction that is available in life for turning around and going in another direction, so that one very much tends to continue in the same direction that one is already going.
How do you know there are no new connections that can be made after death, LOL. No i agree without a brain and mind, with out eyes, nose, nerves, ears, its hard to really experience anythig, and to know anything. There is no evidence that there is something after we die, just wishfull think from animals that know they will cease to exist one day and from a desire to survive. Maybe it does help to easy that fact that we will no longer exist. But i'm not saying its impossible, It would be nice to exist again. But then again it might be better to not exist, i don't ever remember not existing.
exclusivism: No, the religions, churches and organizations of man have no authority from God but only from men. Salvation is according to the work of God and He is not limited by these organizations or beliefs.
Therefore no religious text has any authority. Who is to say there is even salvation or that even one needs it!
those who hear the word of God and believe in Christ will be the only ones who go to heaven. No, this is neither neccessary nor sufficient. There are no magical belief by which we can save ourselves. That we believe in Christ may or may not be a manifestation of a saving relationship with Him. Likewise the rejection of what some Christians are saying or the rejection of any sort of belief, may or may not be a manifestation of a rejection of God Himself.
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