Insults anyone?

Into statistics? Curious what everyone else thinks? Then start a poll here.

Do you feel it is appropriate to engage in insults, name calling or other ad hominems?

Yes:
6
29%
No:
15
71%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:01 pm

Honerstly, I think the "Ignore" button simply serves as a way to dismiss people. It is, in and of itself, more of an insult mechanism than anything else. I mean, if a lunatic comes by like that Neil C Reinhardt dingbat, maybe in that instance it has value, but otherwise, it's merely a button pushed in anger.

It has the added side effect of making the person who is doing it look pretty closed minded, and completely incapable of any self control. How much power are we really willing to give people that we would put them on Ignore and then let them know about it? No one here has that much power over me.

But the worst is when people put you on Ignore, and then answer other posts/posters referencing the person they have on Ignore. That's just cowardice. It's saying, "I wanna say whatever I wanna say, but no one can say anything back to meeee!" It's childish, laughable cowardice. And it's still giving strangers an unbelieveable amount of power over them. To effect someone at that level, man, that's just absurd.

(Yes, in case you're wondering, I recall that you put me on Ignore for awhile, but you did it in anger, didn't you? And I ask you-- am I really worth that much in the grand scheme of things? I hope not :) )
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby JustJim » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:57 am

Keep The Reason wrote:(Yes, in case you're wondering, I recall that you put me on Ignore for awhile, but you did it in anger, didn't you? And I ask you-- am I really worth that much in the grand scheme of things? I hope not :) )

Ha ha... Yes, I had you on ignore for a couple days, and yes, it was out of anger. But you are the example I was thinking of when I said I clicked on the "display this post" button to see what you said anyhow. Like it or not, you're kinda irresistible. And even though you may not really be worth that much in the grand scheme of things, I think you're worth quite a lot in this little scheme of things we've got going here....

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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:13 am

JustJim wrote:Rian,

Did you ever wonder why it is you can't ignore someone's posts without putting them on ignore? I mean, just... ignore them? It seems like you're saying you have a problem ignoring posts you don't want to read, almost as though you can't help yourself and find that you just have to read them, even if you don't want to. Does that strike you as odd? If it does, don't feel bad! :)
It strikes me as being human! :D and as being curious.

I used to put people on ignore, and then I found myself clicking on the "display this post" button so I could see what they said anyhow.
When I first put DU on ignore, I would do this. Then I saw that he was just ... the same 'ol same 'ol every time, plus I saw the threads getting better, as I thought they would. So I stopped hitting "display this post", and the forum has been much more enjoyable. Every month or two, I'l check a post of his, because I haven't given up, but I haven't seen a change. But the vast majority of the time, I see that little "ignore" tag and am glad I blocked his posts.

And many, MANY times, I browse the forum without signing in first, only signing in if I want to post something or read things in the "Science" and "In the News" threads, which you can't read if you're not signed in. And ignore doesn't work if you're not signed in. So I was reading things from people I had intended to ignore, either out of my own curiosity, because I hadn't signed in, or because other people quoted them. It just wasn't worth the trouble.
I sign in automatically, so I don't have that issue.

Now, if I want to ignore someone's posts, I just don't read them. That, surprisingly, is easier for me!

Jim
I'll do that too sometimes, esp. when things get fast and furious and there's just too much to read. I read posts from the people that I have more respect for and let the others go by. But for me, the ignore button has been helpful. It's an extreme thing, because I like hearing and thinking about other viewpoints, but it does have a good purpose.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:26 am

Keep The Reason wrote:Honerstly, I think the "Ignore" button simply serves as a way to dismiss people. It is, in and of itself, more of an insult mechanism than anything else. I mean, if a lunatic comes by like that Neil C Reinhardt dingbat, maybe in that instance it has value, but otherwise, it's merely a button pushed in anger.
I think you're doing some generalizations here. Yes, it can be a button pushed in anger, but it doesn't have to be a button pushed in anger. Or maybe you know that for you, it would be a button pushed in anger.

For me, it was anything but that. I didn't push that button for, probably, a year. I kept trying to work out the communication. I watched how he posted with other Christians. I watched the thread patterns. Sure, I got angry at times, but the button wasn't pushed in anger. It was pushed after months and months and months of data and deliberation, and in a feeling that that was the best option in a bad situation for many reasons.

It has the added side effect of making the person who is doing it look pretty closed minded, and completely incapable of any self control. How much power are we really willing to give people that we would put them on Ignore and then let them know about it? No one here has that much power over me.

I disagree, for the reasons stated in several posts in this thread. And the reason that I let people know about it is that I don't want them to waste time posting something to me when I don't see it.

I don't think it's a "completely incapable of self-control" thing, either. Some, maybe, if that's what you want to call natural curiosity to read something that is right in front of you, esp. when you keep hoping it will get better (and also a kind of train-wreck thing where you want to see how bad it will be!). In my case, putting the person on ignore demonstrated self-control - it was saying I don't feel compelled to read his posts, and they're a downer that I don't need, so I'll remove them from right in front of my eyes.

To look at the other end of the issue - I think that someone who will not put anyone on ignore could have some boundary issues - they are letting the other person's presence control them and are unable to not have that person's posts available - kind of a "I gotta see what they'll say!" thing. I went through this with someone on another board several years ago, and if I had had more self-control, I would have put that person on ignore. But I felt compelled to see what they said - and that feeling was unhealthy. I've learned from that.

So I think there are good and bad reasons to use the ignore button, and good and bad reasons to NOT use the ignore button. I have one person on ignore, and I check his posts every few months to see if that can change.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:15 am

I don't know, Rian. I mean ok if you feel that way but it's just posting. I'm on a different kind of forum elsewhere where there are a plethora of douchebags (it's not atheist/ theist) and I just dont read the post from the douches. If they are on ignore, I would constantly see the "You got this douche on Ignore" message, which to me would be a message that said douche has power over me they don't deserve.

Anyway, mileage may vary. I still think using Ignore is immature and unnecessary.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby gary_s » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:32 pm

Rian wrote:I would say that I'm so, so sorry that I hurt them, and do all I could to comfort and help them, but to me, an apology means that the person has done something intentionally wrong, so I wouldn't apologize if I felt I hadn't done something intentionally wrong. But that's perhaps just the way we use those words in our family. I think that it's important to own your own words and behaviors, but I also think it's unhealthy to own someone else's issues in a way that is co-dependent, or whatever other word you want to use. That is bad for both people, because it stops them from owning their behavior. Do you see what I mean?


Well, for me, it isn't just about what my intentions were. I've seen too many cases where someone was truly injured although there was no intention to do so, as in the example I gave you. I had no disrespect at all for him, but my approach to working with him was simply too combative for him. All it took was for me to be enlightened about it and slightly modify my behavior.

I can accept responsibility for my comments and own them, but I can also choose to NOT accept a response that I think is controlling and wrong. Again, this will probably be rare, but I've found out the hard way that it is certainly something that is done. Do you see what I mean? What do you think?


Not really. I don't get the idea that someone telling you that they were offended by your comment is somehow "controlling" you. That just doesn't compute to me.

Your example with your co-worker is a good one, and I've been through similar things, yet here's the thing - it has to be both sides willing AND able to work on it. If not, it just can't be done. I'm not saying to drop it right away if the other person isn't working on it according to your standards, but I've also learned the hard way that beating your head against a door does NOT guarantee that it will open.


I've found that sometimes you will find certain people that just push your buttons, just by the way they view the world. And the best way to avoid starting a major upheaval is to not let those buttons be pushed.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:49 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:I don't know, Rian. I mean ok if you feel that way but it's just posting. I'm on a different kind of forum elsewhere where there are a plethora of douchebags (it's not atheist/ theist) and I just dont read the post from the douches. If they are on ignore, I would constantly see the "You got this douche on Ignore" message, which to me would be a message that said douche has power over me they don't deserve.
To me, it's just the opposite - that tag says "you've blown it so much that I'm going to insure that I don't even see your crud accidentally".

Anyway, mileage may vary. I still think using Ignore is immature and unnecessary.
I guess we're different, and we interpret things differently.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:59 pm

gary_s wrote:Not really. I don't get the idea that someone telling you that they were offended by your comment is somehow "controlling" you. That just doesn't compute to me.
It didn't compute for me for 50 years, until I came across this person with this issue. The way it's controlling is that they keep finding issues that they say are insulting, and as long as you go along with them, they'll continue to keep finding things that are insulting, and they are controlling your time and energy. And it will never stop, because they can't get their eyes off of themselves, and it fills some kind of need in them to have people constantly worried and concerned about them. They cannot NOT live in crisis, and you'll feed into this unhealthiness as long as you feel that you must try to resolve things with them.

I'm basically in agreement with you, though - I'm just talking about more extreme cases.

Also, there is the case where it's a tool to win a discussion - I've seen discussions going very well on both sides, but if it starts to turn to one side, a person on the other will suddenly have an emotional crisis that derails the discussion that they are now "losing".

And then the case that I mentioned, where a person sincerely can't see that they insulted someone else (or they will say this is the case even while they see it) and will dish it, but if they get anything remotely the same back, they cry foul.

Anyway, just some thoughts... I don't know if we've come up with an answer per se, but I think we've grown in understanding.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby JustJim » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:44 am

Rian wrote:
gary_s wrote:Not really. I don't get the idea that someone telling you that they were offended by your comment is somehow "controlling" you. That just doesn't compute to me.

It didn't compute for me for 50 years, until I came across this person with this issue. The way it's controlling is that they keep finding issues that they say are insulting, and as long as you go along with them, they'll continue to keep finding things that are insulting, and they are controlling your time and energy. And it will never stop, because they can't get their eyes off of themselves, and it fills some kind of need in them to have people constantly worried and concerned about them. They cannot NOT live in crisis, and you'll feed into this unhealthiness as long as you feel that you must try to resolve things with them.

Rian,

From my experience in counseling, I offer you some observations that might help you see yourself in a different light - one in which you have more control over your feelings, rather than surrendering that control to others. Please take these things in the spirit in which I give them, which is to be helpful, not critical.

1. as long as you go along with them - I hope you can see from this that it's you who are allowing yourself to be "controlled" by "going along with them." (Actually, no one else can control you, especially on an internet forum. You choose to allow yourself to feel controlled.)

2. it fills some kind of need in them to have people constantly worried and concerned about them - I'm afraid the "need" you describe here is yours, Rian, not his. It's you who need to constantly worry about people and be concerned about them. That has only to do with YOU, not with the other person.

3. as long as you feel that you must try to resolve things with them - Exactly. YOU feel you MUST TRY to resolve things with them. That's on YOU, not on the other person. It's a problem YOU need to deal with. You don't have any control over other people, but you can control yourself.

Jim
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:45 am

Jim,

Thanks very much for your concern - I guess it somehow didn't come across that I had already figured out the things that you said. I thought it was pretty clear - I said that it didn't compute for me for 50 years, until I came across this person, and then I wrote what I had finally figured out.

So yes, I totally agree with everything you said! and it was very liberating to figure this out, because this person was damaging me and my family in some pretty substantial ways. I finally realized that although in many cases, your right and good and healthy CHOICE to try to help someone will actually help them, there are some cases where your right and good and healthy CHOICE to try to help them does exactly the opposite. And there are cases where your choice is NOT right and good and healthy - where it's need-driven, instead of coming from a healthy place.

Thanks again for your post, though!

(although I disagree with you in #2 when you say it's "not his" - it's a need in both people involved - that's the "co" in "co-dependent". But maybe you know that and you just worded it that way to emphasize my end of things)
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby gary_s » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:13 am

Rian, I am thankful to say that I've never encountered someone manipulating me in that way. And I really hope I never do.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:23 am

Believe me, it's an eye-opener ...

And because I'm kind-hearted and I like to help people, I fed into this thing for several years before it finally occurred to me that I was helping her dysfunction, not helping her. Before I met her, I totally thought that given enough time and love, you could work things out. Now I know that sadly, that's not always the case, and in those cases, it's better to not "help", even though you really, truly mean well and want to help. But they can't be helped that way, and the best way to help them is to not help them how they're asking for help. You can still help them in other ways, sometimes, but it needs to be carefully thought-out.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Rian » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:33 am

And to be fair, Jim, it's not always that the facilitator has an unhealthy need. Sometimes it's just that the facilitator had absolutely no idea that these types of people existed!

It's healthy and good and normal to want to help others, and that's a good thing, as long as it's done out of a healthy mindset, not some need to be supercompassionperson. I just had no idea that people like that existed. When I realized it, we shut things down firmly but politely. Then the irritating thing is that they start trashing you, saying that you're selfish and inconsiderate and all that. But it's just the rantings of a sick person with a sick view of reality, and to give in is to hurt them, so you just respond the best way that you can and shrug it off (and pray for them, in my case). I just say I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm doing what I think is best for both families.

What's really rough is that they are so clever about manipulating - it's always someone else that gets hurt, never her, if I don't give in to her desires. Her kids get hurt all the time, and that's hard to watch. I'll step in when it's a safety issue, or if it is a truly valid reason why she can't pick them up for the millionth time (like an unexpected doctor visit), but otherwise, I just have to let her choices have their consequences.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby mitchellmckain » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:39 am

gary_s wrote:
My parents both graduated in psychology and I have known the real thing from the wannabes since I was in kindergarten. They cerainly were not perfect, but I have met enough other parents to have no end of thanks that my parents were not like them. No Dr. Mundo was far more on target with his comment about not everyone being so lucky as me.


Yes and I suppose this is consistent with your repeated complaints about the liberal environment you grew up in?

Yes I grew up in an EXTREMELY liberal environment. I grew up in peace marches, communes, black panther headquarters, and my father did not even believe in marriage so my parents were not married. I was fed a constant diet of skepticism and being made aware of all the problems with the Chritian establishment. But no I do not complain about ANY of that. Not at all.

But having been raised completely in that environment I was in a good position to see the limitations and fallacies of their way of thinking and that just because they were reacting to hypocrisy in the world does not mean that they did not have any hypocrisy of their own, and just because they were reacting to one set of dogmas did not mean that they were not effectively raising me on another set of dogmas. So yes I could see what was wrong in their methods and dogmas, even though they are all a part of me.

I will ignore the rest of your ranting as not worth reading because I am not interested in your excuses to do all these things you rant about.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:31 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:Yes I grew up in an EXTREMELY liberal environment. I grew up in peace marches, communes, black panther headquarters, and my father did not even believe in marriage so my parents were not married. I was fed a constant diet of skepticism and being made aware of all the problems with the Chritian establishment. But no I do not complain about ANY of that. Not at all.

But having been raised completely in that environment I was in a good position to see the limitations and fallacies of their way of thinking and that just because they were reacting to hypocrisy in the world does not mean that they did not have any hypocrisy of their own, and just because they were reacting to one set of dogmas did not mean that they were not effectively raising me on another set of dogmas. So yes I could see what was wrong in their methods and dogmas, even though they are all a part of me.


Growing up in any "EXTREME" environment is going to accentuate fallacies and limitations, especially if you escape from the imbalanced environment. That's why they are considered "Extreme". Everyone adopts hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, contradiction and fallacious thinking at times, but you really aren't a standard bearer that's exempt from that either. So, when you set yourself up as the arbiter, you immediately fail because you are as fallacious, hypocritical, dissonant, and contradicting as anyone else. That's why it's ludicrous for you -- or ANYone -- to state like you do that "You will call it out wherever you see it."

The very idea that you could do so adds something to your position the rest of us aren't suffering from. And that is self-righteous arrogance.
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