Insults anyone?

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Do you feel it is appropriate to engage in insults, name calling or other ad hominems?

Yes:
6
29%
No:
15
71%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Insults anyone?

Postby mitchellmckain » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:19 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:Growing up in any "EXTREME" environment is going to accentuate fallacies and limitations, especially if you escape from the imbalanced environment. That's why they are considered "Extreme". Everyone adopts hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, contradiction and fallacious thinking at times, but you really aren't a standard bearer that's exempt from that either. So, when you set yourself up as the arbiter, you immediately fail because you are as fallacious, hypocritical, dissonant, and contradicting as anyone else.

The very idea that you could do so adds something to your position the rest of us aren't suffering from. And that is self-righteous arrogance.

:D
EXACTLY!!!!
:D

And THAT my friend, is precisely my point!!!
Last edited by mitchellmckain on Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm

Well, why not lead by example then?
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby mitchellmckain » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:12 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:Well, why not lead by example then?

Why don't you? You are the one that is doing precisely what you accuse me of doing.

The fact is that I do disagree with you on some irrational particulars such at that by which you convict yourself above. I disagree with this statement completely:
Keep The Reason wrote:That's why it's ludicrous for you -- or ANYone -- to state like you do that "You will call it out wherever you see it."

On the contrary, if we believe in an ideal we must point out what goes against that ideal. If we believe in rationality then we must point out the logical inconsistencies in what people are saying, otherwise your belief in rationality is an empty one. If you say that logical consistency matters and act like it doesn't matter then you are not being consistent yourself.

This is NOT the same as setting yourself up as arbiter or saying that you are exempt. To say that you will call it out whenever you see it does not claim that where you see it is the only place that it can be found. No, it is precisely when people make their own thinking the standard for things like rationality that they are setting themselves up as arbiter, and nowhere is this more evident when we are dealing with issues that are not objectively decidable, for that is precisely when you have to step back and not make your own thinking on such issues any kind of standard by which to measure other people in regards to rationality, health or morality.

But the rest of your statement describes many atheists perfectly. Reacting against the extreme environment in which they were raised they go too far. BUT I am NOT reacting against the "extreme" environment in which I was raised. I embrace all the skepticism and criticisms of the Christian establishment. I simply see what you get when you apply skepticism to skepticism itself and the criticism to the critics themselves. But no this is not to say that I am immune or that I am the arbiter of these things.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:40 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:Why don't you? You are the one that is doing precisely what you accuse me of doing.


Because no one thinks I'm doing what you claim I'm doing, and they pretty much think you are doing what you are saying I'm doing. And I know I'm not doing what you claim I'm doing, but I'm with almost everyone else (maybe not Rian) in seeing you doing it. So, why don't you lead by example?

Why don't you worry about you instead of worrying about others? You're a Christian, right? So go work on the beam in your own eye rather than worry about the mote of dust in mine and others. Heal thyself. Judge not. These are the words of the guy you say you worship, so... Why don't you go on and do it, instead of doing the opposite. And before you ask me why don't I do it-- I'm not a Christian and I don't pretend to follow the guys philosophy and then go around doing the exact opposite. That would be a hypocrisy, see?

PS I wasn't raised in any extreme environment. That "You hate god" psychology won't wash with me, because it isnt my movie. An extreme environment may have been your movie, but it wasn't mine.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby mitchellmckain » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:42 am

Keep The Reason wrote:Because no one thinks I'm doing what you claim I'm doing, and they pretty much think you are doing what you are saying I'm doing. And I know I'm not doing what you claim I'm doing, but I'm with almost everyone else (maybe not Rian) in seeing you doing it.

Just because people hide in a crowd does not make them right. And just because I have faults and people have criticisms of me does not make what you say correct.

Keep The Reason wrote:Why don't you worry about you instead of worrying about others? You're a Christian, right? So go work on the beam in your own eye rather than worry about the mote of dust in mine and others. Heal thyself. Judge not. These are the words of the guy you say you worship, so... Why don't you go on and do it, instead of doing the opposite. And before you ask me why don't I do it-- I'm not a Christian and I don't pretend to follow the guys philosophy and then go around doing the exact opposite. That would be a hypocrisy, see?

Judging what people do and judging the people themselves are two very different things. I only comment on posts. I am not the one who has been turning the discussion to a person's character in this dishonest ad-hominem tactic to distract everyone from the issues.

But no I do not accept your effort to turn Jesus words into handcuffs for your own personal convenience. You using the words of Jesus for your own self-serving purpose when you do not believe in them is REAL hypocrisy.

Keep The Reason wrote:PS I wasn't raised in any extreme environment. That "You hate god" psychology won't wash with me, because it isnt my movie. An extreme environment may have been your movie, but it wasn't mine.

But it is rather apparent that you ARE playing a movie that you are watching rather than listening to what people are actually saying/writing, for where did this "you hate god" crap come from? I haven't a clue what you are talking about because it certainly has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.

This is exactly why I have you on ignore because so many of your posts are not resonding to what I actually say that it becomes a waste of time to even read them.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:38 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:Just because people hide in a crowd does not make them right. And just because I have faults and people have criticisms of me does not make what you say correct.


Your faults are those you project onto others without owning it yourself.

mm wrote:Judging what people do and judging the people themselves are two very different things. I only comment on posts. I am not the one who has been turning the discussion to a person's character in this dishonest ad-hominem tactic to distract everyone from the issues.


You are the one who chose to rejoinder "Why don't you?" when I suggested you lead by example. I AM leading by example-- my philosophical underpinning is to not allow theists to have all the special pleadings, exemptions and irrational hoop-jumping they classically are given in these debates. So, I lead by not allowing that device.

I cite the philosophy you claim you adhere to and ask you why you don't lead by your example? Because you don't do it. You claim to believe in these philosophies, and you do the opposite of what they are supposed to lead you to doing. Meanwhile, I'm adhering to my grounding.

But no I do not accept your effort to turn Jesus words into handcuffs for your own personal convenience. You using the words of Jesus for your own self-serving purpose when you do not believe in them is REAL hypocrisy.


I don't have to believe in them to see you ignoring them. Turning this around on me doesn't absolve you from the fact that you are still ignoring your own religious philosophy. It is not a hypocrisy to say, "I do not believe in X, hence I will not personally do X" -- and yet when I see someone who says, "I believe in X but I won't do X" -- well, accoridng to what "hypocrite" means -- that perosn is the real hypocrite. And even Jesus says that you'll run into people like me and you're to remain humble; he asks you to lead by example -- but you think my noting this scriptural element is trying to handcuff you. I wonder what he would think of your position?

So, I ask you again-- why won't you lead by example? I already do, but see if you can make it about you and hold it on you just for as long as it takes to explain why you don't.

But it is rather apparent that you ARE playing a movie that you are watching rather than listening to what people are actually saying/writing, for where did this "you hate god" crap come from? I haven't a clue what you are talking about because it certainly has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.


I didn't say you said it, I said it's a psychological tactic often used by theists -- that being raised "extremely" this or that creates a rebelliousness, such as "you must hate god" or "why do you hate god". It's the tactic I take issue with, not the specific charge of "you hate god".

This is exactly why I have you on ignore because so many of your posts are not responding to what I actually say that it becomes a waste of time to even read them.


I would say that this happens on occasion -- because everyone strays now and again. I recall seeing an EXACTLY!! :D :D response from you to a post of mine somewhere... Oh yeah-- just a couple above this one-- where apparently I did address the issue dead on. So is it you "keeping score"? Because if we do that, then we'll have to account for the many many many times you go off on your"intolerant / bigot" tangent. Yet, I don't see anyone putting you on ignore (who knows, maybe they are).

But now you're sounding a lot like GW Bush and our march to his war: "WMDs... no wait, hating us for our freedoms .... no wait, removing a tyrant... no wait, giving them their freedom... no, wait, securing the Middle East... no wait...". First it was "you're trolling" -- now it's "not responding to the issues in your posts". No, wait... what will it be next? And why is it that only you (and to a lesser extant, Rian) seem to have this problem with me? Whatever anyone else says, "Not replying to what the person said" and "trolling" is not an accusation I ever hear from anyone-- except you.

What it looks like is agenda-based argument. It looks like you're all fine and dandy until cornered. Then, you both like to lash out.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:21 pm

Keep The Reason wrote:What it looks like is agenda-based argument. It looks like you're all fine and dandy until cornered. Then, you both like to lash out.

I think that is exactly what you do. But no I will not lash out. I will simply cease to click on your posts any more, with the exception of the OP for new threads that you post to see if the topic is of interest.
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Re: Insults anyone?

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:16 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:I think that is exactly what you do. But no I will not lash out. I will simply cease to click on your posts any more, with the exception of the OP for new threads that you post to see if the topic is of interest.


I've certainly been insulted but frankly, not corrnered by any theist on this (or any other) site. How can you get cornered by people who cannot demonstrate a thing they claim about theism is true?
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