Mind and Body

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The human mind arises from:

Our Eternal Soul
5
12%
Our Soul and good or evil Spirits
1
2%
A form of mystic Energy that continues after death
1
2%
The brain alone, we die with our body
33
80%
Our body is an illusion given us by God
1
2%
 
Total votes : 41

Re: Mind and Body

Postby mitchellmckain » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:17 pm

humanguy wrote:
mitchellmckain wrote:Just to point out some of the subtlety that may have been lost on some people. I ask you to notice that I did not say that the mind was 100% physical. What I said was that it was just as physical as the body. You see, I DO believe that there is a non-physical aspect to reality and that there is interaction between the physical and the non-physcial (or spiritual) and that this interaction is part of the process of life.


You think that there's a non-physical aspect to the human body?


In a sense yes. I have explained numerous times in other threads that the spirit is a product of our choices. All living things make choices and therefore have a spirit as a consequence of this. Therefore the body has a spirit and we have a spiritual body.

I answered your question using the phrase "in a sense" because when usually think of the body, we mean the physical body. But I believe that there is a spiritual aspect to the body or a spiritual body as it says in the Bible (1 Cor 15:44) - an eternal and imperishable aspect that remains when the physical body dies. And that is the reason I do not say that the body or mind is 100% physical is because there is an interaction between physical and spiritual, but it is an extremely limited interaction, and certainly not something that plays any role in physical causality. In other words, I completely expect there to be a scientific explanation for the nature and operation of the human mind just as there is of the human body.
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Re: Mind and Body

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:07 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:
humanguy wrote:You think that there's a non-physical aspect to the human body?


In a sense yes. I have explained numerous times in other threads that the spirit is a product of our choices. All living things make choices and therefore have a spirit as a consequence of this. Therefore the body has a spirit and we have a spiritual body.


I take it that you mean philosophical or ethical choices, and not what kind of cheese we choose to put in a sandwich. What is it that's convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?
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Re: Mind and Body

Postby mitchellmckain » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:10 pm

humanguy wrote:I take it that you mean philosophical or ethical choices, and not what kind of cheese we choose to put in a sandwich.


No I do not. I mean ALL choices. What makes you think that philosophical choices are all that more important than what kind of cheese we choose to put in a sandwich? LOL

But yeah some choices ARE more important than others in the sense that they affect our well being. And I suspect that choices about what is most important to us are among the most important choices of all. In most choices the alternatives are fairly equal and a matter of preference, but there are choices where the alternatives are far from being equal -- alternatives which greatly limit our awareness and free will by enslaving us to bad habits as opposed to alternatives which expand our awarness and free will with the discipline found in good habits.

humanguy wrote:What is it that's convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?

I have no proof or means to convince you if that is what you are looking for. It just works for me. It makes sense of the world as I have experiened it. It enables and empowers me in the living of my life, and that my friend trumps any amount objective evidence for most people. You can say that thinking this way is one of my choices.
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Re: Mind and Body

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:48 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:
humanguy wrote:What is it that's convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?

I have no proof or means to convince you if that is what you are looking for. It just works for me. It makes sense of the world as I have experiened it. It enables and empowers me in the living of my life, and that my friend trumps any amount objective evidence for most people. You can say that thinking this way is one of my choices.


Ah, but you haven't answered my question. It's good that what you believe enables and empowers you in the living of your life, but I ask again, what is it that convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?

I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking why you believe as you do, why you made this choice. Did something happen one day? Did you have an experience of some sort that convinced you of this? And no, I'm not trying to put you in any kind of position, I'm just very curious.
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Re: Mind and Body

Postby mitchellmckain » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:58 pm

humanguy wrote:
mitchellmckain wrote:
humanguy wrote:What is it that's convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?

I have no proof or means to convince you if that is what you are looking for. It just works for me. It makes sense of the world as I have experiened it. It enables and empowers me in the living of my life, and that my friend trumps any amount objective evidence for most people. You can say that thinking this way is one of my choices.


Ah, but you haven't answered my question. I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking why you believe as you do, why you made this choice.

Well I have answered the question -- I just haven't filled in the details -- either to give you all the logic it fits into, the experiences it explains or the way in which it empowers me. In terms of logic, it is a piece of a very large puzzle and that causes me to hestitate because any attempt at explanation is going to raise a heck of lot more questions. In any case if you expect a simple answer such as some experience or event as you suggest then you will not get any such thing because I don't have any. It is something I found as part of my quest for understanding the nature of things since I was a child, took shape when I studied existentialism, and it eventually became a part of my master's thesis at seminary. Anyway, I don't know how to answer your question without some context, so unless you provide one then I am left with providing my own which is not going to be simple.

There are many other (peripheral) questions involved:
1)Why do I think there is any spiritual aspect to reality at all?
2)What is the nature of this spiritual aspect to reality, and how does it differ from the physical?
3)How do the physical and spiritual interact and what difference does it make -- what do they gain from each other?
4)Where do you find this interaction and where does it impact our everyday lives?

And for each of these 4 questions your question implies another question about what "convinces me that my answer is correct". Well again there is no one simple answer to that, so consider this as the most significant reason: that it simply make more sense to me than any of the alternatives I have heard. If you want more details in that regards then it is up to you to ask this in relation to a specific alternative.

I think I have made some attempts to answer the first question in other posts so it would help a lot if we can set that question aside in answering this question of yours. This means assuming that there is a non-physical (call it spiritual) aspect of reality and that this is connected as I have explained elsewhere with there being an irreducibly subjective aspect to the reality of human existence. The second question of the four I have talked about many times and the basic answer I have given is that unlike physical things that derive their nature from mathematical relationships to the whole physical universe, spiritual things are what they are by their own nature. As a result their nature and existence are not subject to external things - but must find within themselves the means to change or interact with things outside themselves. The answer to the third question is that the physical causality lacks closure on the quantum level and so the interaction gives events direction in those cases, while the spritual lacks form and the interaction gives it that. You will thus find this interaction in quantum events and these become significant only where there is considerable amplification and besides scientific experiments this happens naturally in non-linear systems.


So: "what is it that convinced you that we have a spirit as a consequence of our choices?"

1. It seems to me that nothing is more truly us than that which we choose, so much else is incidental and external. So if we would look for our real identity - that which is truly ourselves -- it seems to me that we must find it in our choices more than anything else. Thus if the spiritual is identified with such things - that which we truly are - then I would conclude that the spiritual is found in these choices we make.
2. If we have any responsiblity in our destiny, it seems to me that this responsibility is found in the identity which we make for ourselves in these choices we make. Thus if our destiny is spiritual then I would conclude that the spiritual also has its substance in much the same way as this identity we make for ourselves.
3. Another thing is that it fits in with the one way in which I can see that an interaction can occur between the physical and something non-physical, for the only lack of closure in physical causality is found in the decoherence of a quantum superpostion. But the collapse of a quantum superposition is a choice of one result among many possibilities.
4. It also fits in the study of non-linear systems which is the one place we might see such quantum decoherence events becoming significant. There we find a phenomenon called bifurcation, where changes in the environmental parameters of the system force the system to make a choice between two or more possible structures.

And... I don't know if any of this answer your question. :smt102
But I tried...
Last edited by mitchellmckain on Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mind and Body

Postby humanguy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:09 pm

That's a good answer. Thank you, Mitch.
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