Your daughter says she is psychic

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Your daughter says she has been having prophetic dreams and visions. What do you do?

Go ask your pastor what you should do.
1
5%
You schedule and appointment with a psychiatrist.
7
32%
Try to find out who has been talking about this kind of stuff with her.
3
14%
Explain to her why this stuff isn't real.
3
14%
Explain to her why this stuff is dangerous.
0
No votes
Look up home remedies in the library or online.
0
No votes
Ask for all the facts and show her which are believable.
5
23%
Become very interested in this sort of thing so she knows you love her.
1
5%
Catalog this with other things she is into that don't interest you so much.
2
9%
Tell her this is really cool and to let you know if she needs any help.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 22

Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:34 am

Aaron wrote:The difference I was referring to is the source of the visions or dreams. My position I believe is Biblical and is that seeking them from a place other than God is not good.

But why do you equate "psychic" with getting them from some place else?

Can you imagine someone saying, "I may get my air and sunshine from God, but you get them from Astaroth." For me, it seems like a really weird thing to do.

It may be that the psychic doesn't know where the dreams and visions come from. Why do they have to say they come from God or agree with your beliefs in order for them to be good? Lots of people don't know the air and sunshine came from God, so why suddenly conclude in their case it comes from somewhere evil? The goodness or evil of something should be judged on a little more objective terms than agreement with your personal beliefs, don't you think?
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby spongebob » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:39 am

Aaron wrote:That's because you're an atheist. It would be counterproductive for the kingdom of darkness to involve you in their goings on. And just in case your mouth is open in total disbelief for what I just wrote I assure you I'm being totally serious. :-)


So, if you're being totally serious, then you aren't making much sense. Satan thrives on adding people to his hoard and it doesn't have to be converting believers; he's happy to have anyone. Non-believers are easier, supposedly. Of course all of this is nonsense.

And I have to admit that I was a serious Bible thumping Baptist when I was interested in the occult. But the interest wore off way before Christianity did.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:45 am

By the way....

I consider all but the last two options to be judgmental and at least a little intolerant. (The third to last is condescending.) Like I say many times, I do not make the limits of my own experience (or interests) the limits of reality itself.

Just saying so you know where I am on this.

Try to imagine the same responses to different situations:
A) Your daughter tells you she is homosexual.
B) Your daughter tells you she is a Catholic.
C) Your daughter tells you she believes in evolution.
etc...
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby spongebob » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:45 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:By the way....

I consider all but the last two options to be judgmental and at least a little intolerant. (The third to last is condescending.) Like I say many times, I do not make the limits of my own experience (or interests) the limits of reality itself.


I disagree with this conclusion. The second and even the first are completely rational options, given that we know with certainty that an admission of this sort is common among people with emotional or mental illness. So there's nothing judgmental about seeking help for your child when there's a possibility this is an indication of some illness. In fact, I would argue that just ignoring it could be dangerous and bad parenting.

#3 isn't judgmental either because children will often pick up new ideas from other kids or TV shows or other sources. Again, I see this as a sign of good parenting that you would follow up with something unusual in your child even though it might lead to nothing special.

Numbers 4 - 7 could be a bit presumptuous, but that all depends on other factors, like whether she's bound to do something dangerous because of this new "ability". And it depends on what she expects from the parent. If she expects the parent to believe her, then the parent is fully justified in explaining to the child what is and is not believable in this case. Is she says she can read my mind then I have no problem inviting her to demonstrate that. When she can't; there's nothing wrong with pointing this out as long as her emotional state can handle it.

The real question here is whether a parent would insist that their child give up this notion in the absence of evidence. That could possibly be emotionally damaging even though it would likely be the best thing for the child to do. However, I know for an absolute fact that such ideas are often emotionally driven, so they have to be treated carefully and not like insisting your child clean up their room.

Just saying so you know where I am on this.

Try to imagine the same responses to different situations:
A) Your daughter tells you she is homosexual.
B) Your daughter tells you she is a Catholic.
C) Your daughter tells you she believes in evolution.
etc...


I can see where you are going with this but there's a big difference between these examples and the psychic power one. These things are all about who she is. There's nothing dangerous about any of these. She could have been persuaded toward any of these as well and there's nothing wrong with asking about that either. But at least we know that there are homosexuals, Catholics and a thing called evolution so we know these concepts are not pure fantasy. It's just a matter of understanding if she really arrived at one of these ideas on her own or was drawn in due to peer pressure. Showing an interest in how and why she decided on one of these would be admirable but I think it would be safe to accept any one of them as believable.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:01 pm

spongebob wrote:I can see where you are going with this but there's a big difference between these examples and the psychic power one. These things are all about who she is. There's nothing dangerous about any of these.
...
Showing an interest in how and why she decided on one of these would be admirable but I think it would be safe to accept any one of them as believable.

No. I don't see the difference. I think any of these could be dangerous and I don't see how these others are any more who she is than her decision she is psychic. Frankly the psychic thing bear a striking resemblance to religion in my mind.

spongebob wrote: She could have been persuaded toward any of these as well and there's nothing wrong with asking about that either.
...
It's just a matter of understanding if she really arrived at one of these ideas on her own or was drawn in due to peer pressure.

Absolutely. But doesn't she have right to be so persuaded? Nobody comes to any conclusion in a vacuum and expecting yourself to be sole contributor is more controlling than is healthy. I think the point is that this reaction is judgement that something that is wrong with thinking differently than you do. I think respecting her right to think differently requires waiting on evidence that actual harm is being done to them or on evidence that peer pressure is involved which is damaging to their own self-determination.

spongebob wrote: But at least we know that there are homosexuals, Catholics and a thing called evolution so we know these concepts are not pure fantasy.

There are people who think they are different in all of these ways but proof that they actually are different is another matter.

I summation, I really don't see a difference. In ALL of these cases there is danger -- there is danger in crossing the street. The question is whether there really is enough danger to warrant trespassing on their decisions and interfering in their life. I would want to see some evidence that justifies this first.
Last edited by mitchellmckain on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby spongebob » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:45 am

mitchellmckain wrote:No. I don't see the difference. I think any of these could be dangerous and I don't see how these others are any more who she is than her decision she is psychic. Frankly the psychic thing bear a striking resemblance to religion in my mind.


That's interesting that you would say that; it sounds more like something KTR might say, equating a belief in psychic powers to religious belief. To me those things are vastly different. Look, we know of no instances of real psychic powers that have been demonstrated to a reasonable degree, right? That doesn't mean such a thing can't exist, we just know of no validated instances where they do exist. So, to me this stands as a paranormal myth on par with Bigfoot and aliens abducting people; they are all equally unproven and thus I put very little stock in them being real.

But homosexual; that's a real thing whether you accept the "born this way" theory or "by choice" theory. Either way, we know that people exist who prefer the companionship and sexual attraction of others of the same sex. We also can say the same thing about religion, whether one rejects the idea of god as real or not, religion is certainly a real thing and buying into any religion is demonstrable and reasonable because there are number of valid reasons people do this beyond simply believing in god.

And believing in most religions is not dangerous as long as one isn't coerced into it. I would say that only applies to the manipulative ones like perhaps Scientology. I also see nothing dangerous about homosexuality. In fact, exploring one's sexuality is a very normal thing. Deciding one is homosexual is no more dangerous than deciding one is heterosexual.

Absolutely. But doesn't she have right to be so persuaded? Nobody comes to any conclusion in a vacuum and expectin yourself to be sole contributor is more controlling that is healthy. I think the point is that this reaction is judgement that something that is wrong with thinking differently than you do. I think respecting her right to think differently requires waiting on evidence that actual harm is being done to them or on evidence that peer pressure is involved which is damaging to their own self-determination.


Persuaded, yes; that's OK. When I refer to peer pressure, I'm talking more about coercion. The line is not black and white but there is a difference.

I see nothing wrong with "thinking differently" and that alone wouldn't raise my concern. I would say "thinking differently" would mean something like a child keeps a detailed drawing journal of her day and spends hours doing this instead of watching TV or using a cell phone. But ideas like belief in the paranormal are often indicators of emotional illness. Not always, of course. I went through a period when I was young where I believed a lot of this stuff and went to some effort to prove its existence or try to experience it myself. I never discussed this with my parents but thinking back on it, I would have been better off had I discussed it with them. They were pretty understanding and I think they would have guided me to the answers I was looking for without a lot of judgement. I think that's the key here and it's a fine line. My interest in the occult wasn't due to emotional distress; I was just a very curious child and the weird and strange usually caught my attention. But that's not always the case.

There are people who think they are different in all of these ways but proof that they actually are different is another matter.

I summation, I really don't see a difference. In ALL of these cases there is danger -- there is danger in crossing the street. The question is whether there really is enough danger to warrant trespassing on their decisions and interfering in their life. I would want to see some evidence that justifies this first.


I'm sorry, but I see a really big difference between the categories you stated. Millions of people are homosexuals and of course most people are religious in some way and they experience no real danger because of it. Belief in the paranormal doesn't necessarily mean you are in danger but it often indicates mental illness so it's not a good idea to ignore such a thing. It's possible it represents nothing more than curiosity, but I would want to know for sure. I don't think the way you posed the question makes this about "trespassing" on another's decisions at all. We are talking about a parent and a child. Parents are expected to take an active role in the child's life. Any indication of problems with the child should not be ignored or encouraged. This is how children end up in real danger, like getting caught up in gangs or cults, or committing suicide. These things do happen and it is often because the child has been pressured into something by their peers. That's why I say it is prudent to know what your child is up to and understand why they are into it. You may disagree but that's my style of parenting and I happen to know people who have taken a much less active role in their child's life and destructive things have happened to the child because the parent wasn't involved enough. But don't take this and misunderstand that I'm saying you have to control your children. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there is fuzzy, unclear line between being a good parent and being a bad one. Doing too little or too much is bad and doing just the right amount is not only difficult but is different for every child so there is no precise recipe.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
~Bertrand Russell

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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby Keep The Reason » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:54 am

That's interesting that you would say that; it sounds more like something KTR might say, equating a belief in psychic powers to religious belief. To me those things are vastly different. Look, we know of no instances of real psychic powers that have been demonstrated to a reasonable degree, right? That doesn't mean such a thing can't exist, we just know of no validated instances where they do exist. So, to me this stands as a paranormal myth on par with Bigfoot and aliens abducting people; they are all equally unproven and thus I put very little stock in them being real.


I love this reply, lol. Check your pm sponge.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:51 am

spongebob wrote:
mitchellmckain wrote:No. I don't see the difference. I think any of these could be dangerous and I don't see how these others are any more who she is than her decision she is psychic. Frankly the psychic thing bear a striking resemblance to religion in my mind.


That's interesting that you would say that; it sounds more like something KTR might say, equating a belief in psychic powers to religious belief. To me those things are vastly different. Look, we know of no instances of real psychic powers that have been demonstrated to a reasonable degree, right? That doesn't mean such a thing can't exist, we just know of no validated instances where they do exist. So, to me this stands as a paranormal myth on par with Bigfoot and aliens abducting people; they are all equally unproven and thus I put very little stock in them being real.

Exactly. And this is different from religion how? It may be surprising you at this late stage but I have repeatedly said how all of these things are equivalent. I frankly admit there is no objective evidence for the things of religion and so logically a tolerance for religion must include a tolerance of these other beliefs.

spongebob wrote:But homosexual; that's a real thing whether you accept the "born this way" theory or "by choice" theory. Either way, we know that people exist who prefer the companionship and sexual attraction of others of the same sex. We also can say the same thing about religion, whether one rejects the idea of god as real or not, religion is certainly a real thing and buying into any religion is demonstrable and reasonable because there are number of valid reasons people do this beyond simply believing in god.

Sure and Christians are real and people who believe they were abducted by aliens are real and people who believe in bigfoot and/or fairies are real. There is no dispute about the existence of people who believe differently, act on these strange beliefs, and have desires that other people do not understand. Religion and fringe groups are just as much of a reality as homosexuality.

spongebob wrote:And believing in most religions is not dangerous as long as one isn't coerced into it. I would say that only applies to the manipulative ones like perhaps Scientology. I also see nothing dangerous about homosexuality. In fact, exploring one's sexuality is a very normal thing. Deciding one is homosexual is no more dangerous than deciding one is heterosexual.

Seriously? Religion isn't dangerous? Of course you can define your religion as something which isn't dangerous just as you can define homosexuality that way. But you can do the same with being a psychic.

Don't get me wrong I am not a believer in psychic powers. I am not disbeliever. I am pretty much uninterested except as a device for a good movie or book. But I do believe in logical consistency and I cannot logically see any difference between these things.

Persuaded, yes; that's OK. When I refer to peer pressure, I'm talking more about coercion. The line is not black and white but there is a difference.

But you used the word persuaded and I made a distinction with regards to peer pressure which I understood to mean coercion. No it is not black and white but there is a difference. However jumping to the conclusion that something MUST be peer pressure or something wrong when it involves beliefs you don't like is what I am saying people must be careful of.

But ideas like belief in the paranormal are often indicators of emotional illness. Not always, of course.

I doubt that it is even a significant percentage. AND I think it is just likely to apply to all the others including religion and homosexuality. My father working in social services, as liberal as you can get, nevertheless encountered a significant number of cases of homosexuality being linked to abuse. Some of us can get a slanted view because of such experiences, but ultimately I don't any of these is really any more an indication of something wrong than any other. That is why I think you need to wait for evidence that it really is linked to something like that.

spongebob wrote:I'm saying there is fuzzy, unclear line between being a good parent and being a bad one. Doing too little or too much is bad and doing just the right amount is not only difficult but is different for every child so there is no precise recipe.

Well I agree with you there and I think we all must have the freedom to make our own decisions and do the best we can. But it doesn't mean we cannot talk about what we think is a better way of doing things with other people.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby spongebob » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:59 am

I think I've said all I can on this topic, interesting as it is. Mitch, your position on this reminds me of Robert Pirsig. No insult intended here; I have a lot of respect for Pirsig. I just don't follow all of his logic.
Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:19 pm

spongebob wrote:I think I've said all I can on this topic, interesting as it is. Mitch, your position on this reminds me of Robert Pirsig. No insult intended here; I have a lot of respect for Pirsig. I just don't follow all of his logic.


Ah, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Right. I have heard about it many times but haven't read it.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby Aaron » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:50 pm

Sorry Mitch, I didn't see this till now.
mitchellmckain wrote:But why do you equate "psychic" with getting them from some place else?

Oh, that is probably just my common understanding of the word from how I grew up. But I am perfectly willing to extend the definition as long as we can use the word with precision.


Mitch wrote:Can you imagine someone saying, "I may get my air and sunshine from God, but you get them from Astaroth." For me, it seems like a really weird thing to do.

It may be that the psychic doesn't know where the dreams and visions come from. Why do they have to say they come from God or agree with your beliefs in order for them to be good? Lots of people don't know the air and sunshine came from God, so why suddenly conclude in their case it comes from somewhere evil? The goodness or evil of something should be judged on a little more objective terms than agreement with your personal beliefs, don't you think?

I think the person who knows who God is and knows who his enemy is and still chooses to go to his enemy for help rather than God is doing something bad (Saul seeking help from the witch of Endor), I think the person who doesn't know any better and who is going to God's enemy for help is not going to get real help, but they are at least innocent of not going to God because they do not know any better (perhaps the magicians in Acts 19:19 fit this description). Then I think as you've said that a person can have dreams and visions from God and not know who God is (there are numerous examples of this in the Bible).

But when I have thought about psychics in the past I always thought of them knowing that there were two spiritual kingdoms and that they were in service to the kingdom of darkness (or perhaps that it was in service to them, which I have to imagine is a foolish mistake to commit). Perhaps I have been naive to think that it was this cut and dry for most psychics.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby Moonwood the Hare » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:30 pm

Just accept it as her way of perceiving things. No big deal.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby mitchellmckain » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:18 pm

Aaron wrote:But when I have thought about psychics in the past I always thought of them knowing that there were two spiritual kingdoms and that they were in service to the kingdom of darkness (or perhaps that it was in service to them, which I have to imagine is a foolish mistake to commit). Perhaps I have been naive to think that it was this cut and dry for most psychics.

To me that is like hearing someone say they always thought science meant conjuring up Satan. It is just that weird to me. The vast majority of books and movies which have psychics in the story as the main character do not portray them as any such thing as you say. In the story, they are are often fighting against bad guys and they usually just have some faith that something good is guiding their visions because it is helping them stop so much evil in the world. One of the best written TV shows ever made was called "Medium" and it is an excellent example of this.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby Aaron » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:25 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:To me that is like hearing someone say they always thought science meant conjuring up Satan. It is just that weird to me. The vast majority of books and movies which have psychics in the story as the main character do not portray them as any such thing as you say. In the story, they are are often fighting against bad guys and they usually just have some faith that something good is guiding their visions because it is helping them stop so much evil in the world. One of the best written TV shows ever made was called "Medium" and it is an excellent example of this.

Huh, I suppose I never thought of it like that before.
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Re: Your daughter says she is psychic

Postby Particles » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 pm

Ask her for lotto numbers.
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