Coming out as an atheist

[Kiwi]

Well, these paragraphs are full of all sorts of moral dilemmas! Good luck in winding your way through the ethical mine field.

Yep! It's good to have this forum to test myself against other people's ideas and values. Like I said, I'm relatively new to this mixed-faith balancing game so I appreciate having some objective (and subjective) commentators to keep me on my toes. I'll let you know how it all goes.

[Exrev]

The further adventures of an emerging atheist


Okay so I'm joining the church music team again. I used to be a worship leader and musician there. After a four year hiatus I have offered myself back as a pianist. Had a coffee with our pastor about it and he's comfortable with the idea of an unbelieving lost soul such as myself contributing to the church worship scene.

My situation for the past year has been a mutual arrangement with my wife that I attend church every second week. In practice it means I'm there once a month or so. I'm finding this unsatisfactory now. If we didn't have kids I'd quite happily not attend at all. But I've come to realize that our family is part of the church community and I am part of my family so therefore I am part of the church community. Taking a long term view I can't expect to un-evangelize my wife and kids, so I have to consider how best to engage with the community we are part of. I don't want to spend the next five years trudging along and sitting gloomily through the service and leaving as fast as I can afterwards. It's not fair on my family and I'll drive myself nuts.

So I've decided it's about people, particularly my family. Plus I love playing the piano - and the piano at our church happens to be a rather tasty grand. If I'm going to be part of this community I might as well do something I enjoy - even if I have to accompany awful songs. The irony isn't lost on me that I'll be spending more time there, but that's okay. It's like when I had to do an assignment at school that I didn't want to do: I'd usually end up choosing a topic that took me MORE effort just because it was more interesting.

Hi Kiwi. I know this is late, but I appluad your efforts. I know some athiest might have an issue with this as they have problems with religion in general The best thing about being an atheist is that we have freedom to set our own goals and prorities. Sounds to me that your family is #1 and you'll do anything to keep it together. This is a great let no one come against that. I do find it halarious that the pastor is okay with having an athiest apart of a worship service, which is supposed to be the mjost sacred part of the christians spiritual life. I don't know you Kiwi, and i don't know your kids or wife, but I think many people disregard how much influence they have on their kids. I think your kids will take what you have to say seriously, especially from someone willing to not only sit though service, but perform in it. One thing that bothers me, is that Christians and atheist, see each other as eneimes in this so called culture war. I think as atheist we have the upper hand in showing ourselves to be tolerant and value diversity.

[Kiwi]

Thanks Exrev, I appreciate your comments. I realize it's quite an audacious proposition that I've come up with, and I understand how to some atheists it must look a mixture of hypocrisy, danger and ethical compromise if not just a bit darn silly.

I've landed on the monthly roster and played at my first service a couple of weeks ago. It felt strangely normal - despite a four year absence and a completely reversed set of beliefs. Although I have to be fair and say I never liked most of the songs four years ago either, so that part hasn't changed.

On balance, when I weigh up my family situation, it feels like a no-brainer to play the piano at church. It's more fun than sitting in the pews, that's for sure. I feel part of the community again, which is a nice change to being the silent grump who tried to avoid conversations with everyone in case they discovered my terrible secret. I was pleasantly surprised by a conversation I had with the guy who coordinates the music teams. I checked in with him to make sure he'd been briefed by our pastor about my spiritual 'status' and he said, "look, on any given day I will be absolutely sure that God exists and other days I wonder what's the point and why I even walk in the church door. I don't think anyone is really sure and we're all on a line that swings from one side to the other." He referenced another guy in the music team, a father of two, who's wife is undergoing treatment for terminal cancer. This guy is a bastion of faith for the church given what his family is going through. "He turns up often and says 'I can't stand this place'."

I have to say this piano playing gig also feels like a surprisingly small deal compared to the challenges of the rest of my week. My oldest boy turned six last month and is asking many more astute questions about the world and about God. He and his brothers are learning about God from my wife and from Sunday School activities. I find it at times awkward and at other times disturbing. I tend to allow my wife to hold the God conversations unless there's a a topic generic enough for me to feel comfortable answering. She defers to me for the scientific explanations. My sons are building up a classic child's image of God just as I did. I'm not about to sabotage it. I have to trust that as my boys get older I'll be able to share my own perspective respectfully and carefully in a way that doesn't shatter their safe little worlds too abruptly. It's a delicate dance that my wife and I are aware we are doing. I also have to remember that she's doing the dance too, and she's still my partner in all of this. The Christian & Atheist by-line springs to mind at this point: Where differences and respect co-exist. This is where the rubber meets the road, as they say.

[ever.greener]

Hey, sorry if a response from a Christian Isn't something one wants in this discussion, but from reading a few posts on here, a great book that might help out people with their spiritual walk has just come out. its called "The ChristianAtheist" By Craig Groeschel. Its a very good book. My best friend Ben is a teetering atheist/agnostic but liked the book anyway because he was more educated because of it. But hey, just tossing it out there. Im not sayin, im just sayin. Thanks you guys.

[Exrev]

Hey, sorry if a response from a Christian Isn't something one wants in this discussion, but from reading a few posts on here, a great book that might help out people with their spiritual walk has just come out. its called "The ChristianAtheist" By Craig Groeschel. Its a very good book. My best friend Ben is a teetering atheist/agnostic but liked the book anyway because he was more educated because of it. But hey, just tossing it out there. Im not sayin, im just sayin. Thanks you guys.

That book is rather insulting to atheist. Basicly comparing hypocritical lazidaizcal Christians and comparing them to atheist. I think not. There are passionate atheist thankyou very much.

[Kiwi]

Thanks for the suggestion evergreener, I'm always interested in new books. Unfortunately though, you've missed the point of this thread. The book you've recommended is aimed squarely at christians and it assumes as its starting point that God exists. This thread assumes God doesn't exist. There's no wrestling with God here, no turmoil in that sense. That battle is long over for me. So there's no "spiritual walk" that needs help in terms of reassuring or reconciling anyone back to God.

The matter I raised in this thread is about how one makes the transition from a private atheist to a public atheist, especially when surrounded by christian family members. It's a very real issue. If you only read the last few posts about playing the piano in church I can understand how you might have taken things out of context. But no one here is trying to improve or fix their spiritual walk.

[NH Baritone]

Hey, sorry if a response from a Christian Isn't something one wants in this discussion, but from reading a few posts on here, a great book that might help out people with their spiritual walk has just come out. its called "The ChristianAtheist" By Craig Groeschel. Its a very good book. My best friend Ben is a teetering atheist/agnostic but liked the book anyway because he was more educated because of it. But hey, just tossing it out there. Im not sayin, im just sayin. Thanks you guys.

E.G:

Your neophyte status warrants lots of lenience, but please note that we attempt very hard not to cross the boundaries of the Atheist or Christian sections of the C&A forum. I hope that the responses you received were sufficient chiding to prevent this in the future, but just in case, I thought I should be more direct.

Now, that said, if you wish to copy something you've read here in the Atheist section and start a parallel thread in the General Discussion section, you are highly encouraged to do so.

Welcome to the forum.

(BTW, in the interest of prudent use of screen real estate, could you reduce the size of your signature's graphic. At present it takes up about 1/3 of my screen each time it appears and prevents me from reading your posts without a modicum of annoyance.)

[Exrev]

Question for any of u. Anyone here been de-baptised? If you don't know what that is, I heard some atheist do this, they get a hair dryer. here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAo_rEgR4xU

[NH Baritone]

Question for any of u. Anyone here been de-baptised? If you don't know what that is, I heard some atheist do this, they get a hair dryer. here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAo_rEgR4xU

It's an interesting but vague phenomenon, simply from a ritualistic perspective.

The ritual of baptism (whether of children or of adults) symbolizes for both the individual and the congregation the initiation into the Christian fold. The meaning of de-baptism is less clear.

• Are you declaring yourself excluded from that fold? If so, doesn't the responsibility for such ostracizing belong to the church?
• Are you rejecting those who previously included you? Understandable (and perhaps healing) if you've felt harmed, but over the top if it's simply a way to get a dig in.
• Are you declaring membership in some non-existent atheist community that you wistfully hope some day to exist? If so, this seems at least premature.

I know of some people who throw a divorce ritual (symbolized with the tossing of his/her ring into a lake, perhaps, or for the more practical, signing them over to a pawn shop). Most people, however, simply take a deep breath and get on with their lives.

[AA/PK]

So, erasing one ritual with another even less useful one?? It came of as a snide and sarcastic joke to me.

[Exrev]

So, erasing one ritual with another even less useful one?? It came of as a snide and sarcastic joke to me.

Ah yes... Some people like to have FUN!!! If Christians are going to tell us we are going to burn in hell.. at least we have the right is to mock and make fun of them.

[NH Baritone]

So, erasing one ritual with another even less useful one?? It came of as a snide and sarcastic joke to me.

Ah yes... Some people like to have FUN!!! If Christians are going to tell us we are going to burn in hell.. at least we have the right is to mock and make fun of them.

Personally, I would prefer to roast marshmallows and make s'mores. That's a lot more fun than futzing around with a hair dryer.

[Exrev]

So, erasing one ritual with another even less useful one?? It came of as a snide and sarcastic joke to me.

Ah yes... Some people like to have FUN!!! If Christians are going to tell us we are going to burn in hell.. at least we have the right is to mock and make fun of them.

Personally, I would prefer to roast marshmallows and make s'mores. That's a lot more fun than futzing around with a hair dryer.

Its just a party idea.. it is sacreligionous. But I do like s'mores, last party i went to we had 'smores they are good.

[Kiwi]

A brief essay update on the life and times of an atheist married to a christian

Pornography or atheism? That's the unfair question I posed, hypothetically, to my wife, asking her which she'd prefer me to be involved with. She decided she'd rather I was a Christian struggling with pornography than be an atheist. Bear in mind this began light heartedly when she said she was off to bed and I said I still had some stuff to do on the computer, after which she quipped, "surfing a bit of porn, are you?" And I said, "would you rather I was looking at porn than at atheist websites?"

It's a fine balance in our house at the moment. Following Brad's recommendation I have discovered Dale McGowan and his book Parenting Beyond Belief. All about how to raise ethical kids without religion. There was an awkward, slightly chilly moment the other night when my wife found that same book, which I had picked up at the library, lying on a chair in the lounge. Without hiding it, I have tried to be thoughtful about not leaving it lying anywhere too obvious, but I got distracted by a phone call and she spotted it.

Two considerations here: one is that I'm not going to try to undermine my wife's wishes by sneakily raising my kids without religion, but I do want to be prepared for the questions and situations that are coming my way. Hence the book. Second and more important, is that as a result of my decision to abandon my faith, my wife is now tip-toeing around the edge of depression. I can say this with confidence because I've spent four years on anti-depressants myself (largely attributed to the wrestling I did with my own faith). So we both recognize the signs. How she feels is not all my fault, of course, but the faith issue is one monster of a stress machine. I have to bear this in mind and choose my timing wisely for many conversations. (Not leaving an atheist parenting book in plain sight would be a good start.) You know those moments when your partner lies next to you in bed and you know you're in the shit? It was like that after she found the book. She said, quite vehemently, "It just sucks that we are on such different pages about what we believe."

She's right. It does suck. It's bloody hard. And I'm the one who jumped off the family's ship of faith. Not a decision I made lightly and I don't think it's going to get much easier for quite a while, if at all.

[NH Baritone]

She said, quite vehemently, "It just sucks that we are on such different pages about what we believe."

She's right. It does suck. It's bloody hard. And I'm the one who jumped off the family's ship of faith. Not a decision I made lightly and I don't think it's going to get much easier for quite a while, if at all.

I hope you two can hang in there. If she is becoming depressed, consider it is more the rigidity of the Christian faith, not you, that is contributing to her own limited capacity to manage the changes in you.

I am curious, though. You are obviously familiar with the literature of Christianity. Has she been willing to read anything that would explain atheist thinking so she doesn't have to hear it from her bedmate?