Coming out as an atheist

[marcuspnw]

Are you sure it was with his Bible?

Doesn't the bible references itself as a staff, a rod and a sword? So yeah, let's call it his Bible.

If that's the case, is the "t" silent in the phrase "Bible-thumper"? Have I been mispronouncing that one! I guess from now on when someone asks me to pack my Bible, I'll be confused as to their desires!

[joekohr]

Kiwi,

I haven't looked at this thread for a long time (a lot of personal stuff going on this year). I'm sorry to hear what you've been dealing with. I really hope that you can show your wife that you're still that same person that she fell in love with. I know it's a difficult situation. I relate to your situation in several ways. I was raised in a God believing family for my entire life, and so was my wife. I truly believed and accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. And, our marriage was firmly founded on our belief in God. If anything, I'd say I had a stronger belief than my wife. My disbelief, probably came as a result of asking too many questions ... reading and listening to too many apologists and atheists. I was a strong Christian when I started listening to this podcast, so I should probably blame Emery, as well. But, when I lost my faith, I felt separated from everyone I know. I still do. My wife suffers from depression and sees a Christian psychologist. I'm still of the opinion that explaining to my wife that I've lost my faith will end our marriage. And, I'm constantly thinking about what I'm going to tell my kids when they start to ask questions about faith. I hope that your wife can see things from your perspective. But, I wonder if I would have been so open minded 5 or 10 years ago if my wife had left the faith? I realize now, that I couldn't see the other side of the argument then, and now that I'm on this side, I have the opposite problem. I'm finding it hard to look at things from a Christian's perceptive. It's like I'm always thinking why can't everyone see things from my viewpoint, while at the same time I don't see things from theirs. I guess what I'm saying is that I know it must be hard for your wife to see that you are still the same person. I hope that you can still grow as a married couple, even with different beliefs. Wish you the best in the New Year, Kiwi.

[Kiwi]

Cheers Joe and great to hear from you again.

Fortunately my wife knows - and tells me! - that I'm still the same person. She's always known that I think an exhausting amount compared to her. At the end of the day your actions show you for what you are, which fortunately in my case show me up to still be the same guy. It's been a hard year and continues to be hard, but it's way better than to have pretended for the entire year or two to my wife that I was still a Christian. That must be exhausting! I don't know how you do it. Perhaps you don't have to draw such a hard line Joe. Maybe it's not such an either/or situation. I'd explain more what I mean by that, but it's quite possible that I may have just drank three good drams of fine whisky (Laphroaig, a Christmas present) and I'd only confuse both of us trying to elaborate. In fact, I've already broken my own rule of not posting while drinking. Best stop here. All the best Joe.

Ki --hic - wi.

[Kiwi]

Okay, where was I? Perhaps it's not a case of drawing such hard lines between you and your wife: "You are a Christian. I am not a Christian." Those are unforgiving definitions which aren't flexible enough to allow for the ebb and flow of people's individual journeys. What if you said to your wife, "I think I may be on a journey away from God." How would she react to that? Or there might be a softer way to phrase it. "I've been asking myself a lot of hard questions about God and have had trouble finding any satisfying answers." That's the start of a dialogue - as opposed to drawing a hard line that polarizes each of you.

Whatever you do, don't do what I did which was to mention casually to my wife one morning only ten minutes before we left for church, "you know, I've decided I'm an atheist stuck in a christian's body." My main mistake was to assume that she was reasonably up to date on where my head was at. I thought I'd been dropping enough hints, but it was not sufficient to break the fall, unfortunately. That was a very quiet Sunday. And yet here we are, more happily married than ever before. It's been interesting - in some ways the division has brought us closer. (She's doing much better lately too.) It all boils down to what you think the foundation of your marriage really is. Is it a creed? Or is it your friendship and love for each other? If it's the latter then you should be able to ask yourself questions about your beliefs openly with your partner. Doesn't make it easy, but it does make it possible.

[joekohr]

Don't worry about drunk posting there's no judging here. I definitely think that your right about working it in in small steps. For the most, part she knows I'm fairly skeptical and science minded. I need to start expanded that. I know that she wants me to take a stronger "leadership" role in spiritual matters, but it's something that she's afraid to bring up with me. I know at some point were going to have the spiritual talk, and I'll have to at least tell her that I'm questioning my faith. It's something that I think will have to come out within the next year. It's just that when you go down that road there's no turning back, and I'm not sure how well she'll deal with it. The last two years of our marriage has been very rocky, and we've seriously considered divorce several times. We keep trying to work on our relationship, and there's months where things are really good between us. I keep feeling that starting this processes of coming out rocks the boat in an already stormy sea. She gets really defensive when I question, what I would consider, silly superstitions, such as, people always die in threes. That was a conversation we had a few days ago, and she got mad at me for saying that it was all just conformation bias. And, that millions of people die everyday. This next year is going to offer a lot of change in my life and marriage, and I'm hoping for the better.

So are you still working in the music program at your church? How has that been going?

[Kiwi]

Yessiree I'm still playing piano and oddly enough I'm loving it.

I'm happily settling into a place where my unbelief and skepticism can coexist with my Christian family and church life. Having resolved my spiritual angst I can now enjoy observing and reading and thinking about Christian things without the heavy burden I used to feel.* It's a nice place to be for now. So I contribute to the church community by being a part of the music team. (I always refuse though, when asked if I want to sing as well as play.) The main positive is that I no longer feel I have to skulk around the fringes of the church on sporadic Sundays, hiding behind my kids or my wife and itching to sneak home as soon as possible.

In short, I've gotten over the grumpy phase of my transition out of the faith. I can actually have conversations and enjoy being with believers - all good people whom I get along with.

If I were single I would have just left the church, but I deemed it to be an unhelpful option for my family context.

As for your own situation, Joe, well, hang in there my friend. Personally I'd always vote for compassionate honesty. It sure sounds tough at the moment, like you're both tip-toeing around things you want to avoid. Who knows, maybe once you both get talking - really talking - you might find she has some surprises for you too. My wife and I had a lot to work through - still do - but for us it's been a journey that we've tried to take together. It could've destroyed us but I'd venture to say that it's ultimately enriched our relationship. Here's to you and your wife reaching 2012, looking back and saying 'wow, that was a tough year but it was worth it and look where we are now!'


*"My yolk is easy and my burden is light." Yeah? Well it sure was heavy unloading it!

[Kiwi]

Telling the family

I stumbled upon the email I'd sent to my family in 2009, my 'press release' to inform them I'd crossed to the dark side. (Most were living overseas at the time.) It may or may not be of interest. Names have been converted into Star Wars characters to protect the innocent. But mostly the guilty. Here 'tis.

A little piece of Han Solo's brain.

Hello family
Okay pour yourself a coffee or a tea and sit yourselves down. I'm not sure how to write this but it's something that needs to be said.

As you all know I tend to think a lot. I enjoy throwing ideas around and my brain is rarely in the same place twice. I have always worked particularly hard at having an authentic faith, one that is distinct from the trendy christian culture. Cue: lots of books, reading and more thinking.

Over the past few years I have gone through a process of deconstructing my faith to find the central nugget (or nuggets) of truth. What is it that I really believe? When we casually (or reverently) refer to God, what/who are we actually referring to?

I went through a phase where I understood Jesus a whole lot better than God, which was a nice change because I'd traditionally struggled more with Jesus. Oddly, Jesus makes the most sense to me now, and God doesn't.

In fact, I have deconstructed God pretty much to the point where I am no longer convinced he actually exists. I'm not talking about backsliding or 'seeking and not finding'. I'm talking about a cold blooded, rational conclusion that God probably doesn't exist. I stop short of saying definitively 'there is no God'. I'm saying that I'm more sure there is no God than I am that there is a God. The sliding scale has slid across the threshold. I crossed this particular bridge about a year ago and didn't tell anyone. It was quite a scary and lonely place to find myself.

So my worldview has quietly but traumatically been tipped on its head. A year later I'm feeling more comfortable with it, but now the hard part starts because Princess Leia (and I) have realised it's not just a phase. There's a new equation that we have to grapple with, which used to be:

(Me + Leia + God)

and is now:

Me + (Leia + God).

At least, that's how it feels for us, which is taking some getting used to.

I haven't gone around talking about this a lot because I didn't want to redefine myself prematurely. I'm not entirely sure how to categorise my position. I don't feel 'lost'. I don't feel like a 'heathen'. The word 'atheist' has just as many negative connotations as 'christian' these days but I suppose on paper 'atheist' is the best definition, except that I don't much like it. I suggested to Chewbacca that I might be an atheist in a christian's body, which is like trying to have my cake and eat it too I suppose. I'm certainly an undercover atheist at church. I think mostly I feel like an ex-Christian. It's very strange.

You may have some questions at this point, please ask away. My friend Obi-Wan has been asking me lots of questions and I enjoy it because it keeps me on my toes and doesn't allow me to assume my mind is made up forever. I'm quite happy about the journey.

To be honest I have been putting off telling you all this, especially Mum and Dad. For a while it felt like it would have been easier to announce I was gay. (I'm not.) I also suspect that the tumbling and wrestling issues of faith have had a lot to do with my mood and outlook on life for the past four years. Hence one or two little prescriptions that I'm still using. It also makes me wonder if there's a chicken/egg thing: does depression lead me to think God isn't real, or does having doubts about God lead to depression?

Anyway.

It will be a nice relief for Leia that I have 'come out', she is a little bit alone in this too at the moment. What a hero, being married to me through all the adventures I take her on!

The other thing is that you should not (and probably can't anyway) stop talking to me about your own faiths and hopes and everything in between. I'm not in a bitter place, or a denial place, I'm just in a different corner. Maybe for the moment, maybe for longer, time will tell.

Righto, that's about it I suppose.

Much love

Han

[NH Baritone]

Lovely letter, Kiwi. I hope they were proud of you.

[RoyMustang]

wow, this is an excellent question and thread too, im new to these forums so i will come out with it. since my parents are divorced, i got several different reactions. the 1st one was my dads reaction and he didnt care at all (i thought it would turn out much worse) but it actually didnt, my mother however didnt like it and she sent me a Long message on facebook about how my choice was stupid and atheists are targeted for hate crimes and how i raised to be a christian, I read the msg, and then immediately deleted it. most of my friends have no problem with me being an atheist. however, i dont know about the rest of my family since they have not asked me about it (but i havent asked them either) but it wouldnt hurt to find out. my dad has a new girlfriend and they are both christians, and their christian religion is all they talk about (they wont even talk about anything else either) another thing i put up with too is everywhere i go i have to hear on the radio someone preaching the word of god, even if its to a grocery store or another state, despite im listening to music on my phone, my mother does it as well, even when shes around with her boyfriend. its just sad i got to be the unlucky candidate to put up with all of this.

[Kiwi]

Hey, welcome Roy. I take it you used to be a christian yourself? Or did you trundle along quietly with the family religion without any particular passionate for it? How long ago was all this?

Lovely letter, Kiwi. I hope they were proud of you.

Cheers NH. I think they were, despite their own sadness. Although, when I first wrote it they went a bit funny for a while. Two years down the track now, things feel a lot more normal. It's quite possible they've grown more proud of me as time's worn on and they've had opportunity to see that I haven't become a wild, reckless hedonist. They can see that I'm still the same guy,that I've continued to work through my decisions with integrity and haven't turned into a bitter hater of all God botherers.

[RoyMustang]

@Kiwi... thanks for the welcome all of this happened 1 year ago and I just trundled along quietly with the family religion without any passion for it

[NH Baritone]

It's quite possible they've grown more proud of me as time's worn on and they've had opportunity to see that I haven't become a wild, reckless hedonist. They can see that I'm still the same guy,that I've continued to work through my decisions with integrity and haven't turned into a bitter hater of all God botherers.

A triggered thought: It seems patently unfair that in order to be seen as acceptable atheists, we must live lives so morally upright that we put everyday Christians to shame.

I endured a similar internal dictum when I came out as gay. In reality the uptightness about our "otherness" belongs to the believers, and it is their responsibility to get used to it.

When we submit our behavior to their heightened scrutiny, we effectively say that we are in charge of making our atheism OK for them. And if they reject us for it, then it becomes our fault.

To that idea I say, "Phooey!" Holding atheist ideas doesn't come with an obligation to simultaneously live up to Christian behavioral standards. I think an occasional hedonistic moment can be an advantage we can claim guilt-free.

As the song says, "Let's give them something to talk about."

[Kiwi]

Standing ovation!

You're dead right on that front. I've had to tread a fine balance in this area for the past few years with regard to the ocassional night out with a few or more drinks. My wife maintains a very strict frown when I wake up a bit worse for wear, even if it's planned well in advance. That's an area that we'll never see eye to eye on. While I do all that I can to respect her own (very high) standards, I do sometimes unapologetically have a session with workmates and have to accept that there will be a cold shoulder for a day or two. This is about the limit of my stubborness.

For the most part I actually AM the same guy. It's not a battle to stay faithful or avoid heroin. It's my belief system that's changed, not my desire to avoid self-destruction.

[humanguy]

Holding atheist ideas doesn't come with an obligation to simultaneously live up to Christian behavioral standards. I think an occasional hedonistic moment can be an advantage we can claim guilt-free.

Occasional? To hell with that. Guilt? Again, to hell with it.

Grabbing ever minute and squeezing it for all its juice is one of the supreme joys of being a human being, and I'll tell you something else. I stopped listening to the mentally disturbed people who go railing against having a good time many many years ago. Maybe they're just jealous, I don't know, but they sure seem crazy to me.

Can't do this, shouldn't do that. Hey, you know what? FUCK YOU!

Sorry, for a moment there I was young again.

[Kiwi]

Wow, Humanguy experiences a youthful renaissance!

In principle I agree with you 100%. But in practice a bit of consideration is required for those around us. I'm hardly going to go on a hedonistic pleasure binge at the expense of my wife and kids. Not that I think that was your point.

My boundaries have certainly moved since leaving the faith and my wife and I now have different moral starting points on some key issues. It all requires a bit more negotiation. And it's only going to get trickier as my kids get older and as I become more confident in my own atheistic world view.