Am I an Atheist?

[Magenta]

Having come to realise that I put myself on a "slippery path" I've deleted my post.
Sorry if it messes up the continuity of the thread and I wish you all well !

[Brad]

Magenta,
First, I'm curious as to whether Magenta is your given name? If so, I think it's lovely.

Second, I'm not sure I can find the words to express my sympathy and empathy for the family discord that you and your children have endured through the JW teachings and practices. Writing now, I have tears in my eyes.
Though my own family is based in a different form of fundamentalism, I know very, very well how this sort of thing works and how much utterly unnecessary and extreme pain it causes. Actually, I've been carefully observing what passes for family values among dogmatic religionists for many years now, not only in my own extended family, but among other people of Christian heritage and Jews, and reading about family dynamics among Muslims. In short, I think this sort of thing is one of the worst, yet least recognized, consequences of dogmatic ideology combined with deity beliefs, especially in the forms of the monotheistic religions.

It sounds as if your son is a courageous and smart young man - with a very good heart, too. And you, too, show courage and intelligence as you begin to question what you've been taught. I only hope that in the years to come, your daughter may begin to question, too, so that the three of you together can enjoy the true value of each other - of family - that the divisive and hurtful dogma now prevents.

As I and many other people see it, the teachings of the JWs, indeed of the Abrahamic religions generally, have evolved and mutated very much like a biological virus, not to promote the health and happiness of the carriers / believers, but to defend the beliefs and teachings themselves against antibodies, which in the case of god beliefs are called reason and critical thinking.

Finally, no, as of now, I don't think it's correct to consider yourself an a-theist. The distinction between an a-theist and a theist, whether a Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or any other sort of theist, is that theists believe in unseen beings of great power and a-theists do not think such beings exist because the evidence found throughout verifiable reality stacks mightily against such a proposition.

Oh, and having read what you wrote above, now I REALLY recommend that you hear or see Julia Sweeney's monologue!
Her circumstances are a bit different from yours, in that she was raised Catholic and the people who knocked on her door were Mormons , but overall, I think her story will be very helpful to you. And regarding family dynamics, she humorously, but bitter-sweetly, makes reference to the difficulties she's had within her own family after she started to use her brain for its evolved purpose - to think, instead of simply to obey.

All the best to you and your family!

[Pseudonym]

Magenta, let's get the first easy question out of the way: You believe in God, therefore you're not an Atheist.

"Atheist" does not refer to those who doubt, or those who are outside one particular Christian denomination. It just refers to someone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities.

Having said that, I think you've already worked out that something wrong about what you believe. Perhaps you have the wrong attitude, perhaps you've been taught something wrong. I can't tell you what the problem is. This is your journey, not mine, and this is something you have to work out for yourself. But clearly, the situation that you're in is untenable, and something has to give. I hope that "something" isn't your family.

There is one thing that I think you're wrong about, and that's Matt 10:34-36. This is one of the more controversial sayings attributed to Jesus, and the spin that you seem to be putting on it is by no means a "mainstream" view. See the Wikipedia page for an interesting range of perspectives.

Good luck.

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for personal reasons
sorry if it messes up the thread.

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for person reasons
sorry if it messes up the continuity of the thread

[Kiwi]

Hi Magenta. I find your story quite disturbing. Thanks for sharing it. I can't imagine living in an environment that would force me into an either/or choice between my faith and my family. I know it happens around the world but it's always awful to hear about.

For my part I'd suggest the 'God' you are moving away from fully deserves to be abandoned. No loving God would demand separation from your family the way you describe; I certainly agree with Pseudo that the way you (or more accurately your church) is interpreting some of Jesus' sayings is right out there in unconventional land. Your church's interpretation presents a God I would definitely question very closely.

...which leaves you in a sticky spot, or more accurately, a traumatic spot that I don't envy one bit. All the best to you. Please stick around.

And yep, you're definitely entering skeptical territory. If I were still a Christian I'd propose that you test your JW questions against more conventional Christianity before ditching the whole package. Wherever you end up, it's a disconcerting ride - but I have a feeling you're ultimately headed for a far more liberating place.

[Brad]

It appears to me that you're opening your eyes very nicely, Magenta. And you really nailed it with your analogy of Biblical / religious "spin" and politics!
You'll notice that dyed-in-the-wool religionists are always very certain that their own way of believing - in one god or another and in one ancient holy book or another - is surely the correct one, which also means, though they hate to have it pointed out, that the way every other sort of believer believes is wrong. This provides a very nice sense of satisfaction and a delicious way to feel "better than" other human beings with very little real effort. Of course, the majority of believers, especially Christians, like to think of themselves as "humble sheep," too. This way, they can have their humble cake and self-righteously eat it, too!

As we don't really know that much about the circumstances of where you live in non-urban South Africa, I'm glad everyone has been cautious about advocating that you take any specific action - other than to use your head, which you're clearly doing already. Are the majority of people where you live JWs? Would you have some social support and friends nearby if one way or another you separated from the JWs?

Have you discovered any other online resources for ex-JWs or doubting JWs? I remember reading somewhere that such exist. Also, there are some ex-Mormon online resources that you might look into for support, as the Mormons are just as hard, maybe even harder, on those who begin to question their claimed Authority From God, using threats and actions involving loss of family to help enforce conformity.

Speaking of Mormons, you might see if the book, Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer is available where you live. It's a great read, and I'd really, really, love to hear whether and to what to degree you think JWs and Mormonism are similar. Or maybe Mormons already have a base of influence near you and you're familiar with them?

And I can't help but suggest the book I started a thread about (no replies, yet ), Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer. I think you would find it very, very, helpful, especially at this particular time in your search.

... therefore you're not an Atheist.

"Atheist" does not refer to those who doubt, or those who are outside one particular Christian denomination. It just refers to someone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities.

We all agree that Magenta is not, currently anyway, an atheist. And you're absolutely right, Pseudonym, that an atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities. Atheists and athesim have no dogma nor ideology of any kind.
So for that reason, not to split hairs, but it's really not correct to capitalize atheist or atheism except as the first word of a sentence. I suppose I'm a bit sensitive to this because of the dishonest or highly misinformed attempts of some religionists to cast atheism as a religion in an effort to make religion and atheism seem like comparable ways of thinking.
"Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color," as the saying goes.

Similarly, while it's true that many atheists, like me, are thoroughly persuaded that the Abrahamic God, like all the other gods in the encyclopedia, is and has always been simply a creation of human imagination, I take issue with your statement that, "atheist does not refer to those who doubt." In fact, generally speaking, it seems to me that the precise opposite is true.
"Believer" does not refer to those who doubt. See the definitions of skeptic that Magenta provided above.
Atheists, ESPECIALLY those who are former believers or who were raised in believing environments and cultures, are almost by necessity doubters and skeptics.

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for personal reasons
Sorry if it messes up the thread

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for personal reasons
sorry if it messes up the thread

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for personal reasons,
Sorry if it messes up the thread

[Brad]

I'm very glad that you've been treated kindly and haven't experienced any meanness directed toward you from JW sources!
I hope that continues to be the case, although of course, you'll need to be careful with how you express yourself.

Ms. Sweeney's situation was similar to yours - she generally has great memories of her Catholicism, but just couldn't keep up the supernatural / divine inspiration pretense - the incongruities were too great for her.

Here's a link to a transcript of a talk that I heard delivered in person several years ago by another person to whose experience you'll relate in several ways - a former minister.

[Kiwi]

You say "if I were still a Christian". Are you an atheist then?

Yep. I suppose I am. I wish I had stumbled upon these forums much earlier, when I was still wrestling with God. It was a very lonely time and I searched the web looking for people who had been through a similar experience. As far as I knew I was practically the only person in the world to proactively deconstruct God and leave him the way I was doing. My non-christian friends had never cared, and my christian friends and family didn't understand. I looked at sites like exchristians.whatever, but at the time they seemed too bitter. It took me ages to find this place where I was instantly rewarded by discovering others who had travelled the same path as me. Thank God for the forums!

I read one of your other posts where you mention that you are still surrounded by Christians. How do you deal with that?

This got harder and is now getting easier as my friends and family learn to deal with my shift in perspective. Hardest with/for my wife. We have three kids (age 2 - 5) and our faith was always the backbone of our marriage. We've come to an arrangement where I go to church with the family every other week. It's strange at church because I was a very active member of the music team. Fortunately I took an extended break from that a while ago, so I haven't suddenly disappeared. It's odd though - most people at church don't realise I'm an atheist in disguise. Sometimes it's actually kind of fun! I'm guessing, though, that my church environment is quite different to yours. It's great to read that the JW family around you is caring, despite the constraints of the theology.

In an act of shameless self promotion, I'd like to point you to some of my earlier threads that may interest you. Like you, I was blown away by the responses I received from other forum members when I first began posting.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1725&p=36449#p36449
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1770&p=37325#p37325
And then there's the 'coming out as an atheist' thread which you have participated in already. Some amazing replies and words of wisdom in there from people here, who I am beginning to think of as my friends - as fragmented and disjointed as friendship can be in cyberspace.

[Pseudonym]

Hi Pseudonym, I enjoy your posts.

Thanks!

The thing with that scripture, and any other for that matter, is that a "spin" can be put on them. I sometimes see similarities in God and, for example, the leader of a country. Something the leader does or says is not received favorably by the masses, so the spin-doctors go into action to try and make it more palatable - putting a positive "spin" on things. In the end the original purpose of the word or deed is lost, and the bad guy made to look like a knight in shining armor. The fact remains that religion is divisive, appealing to emotions rather than to logic.

Yes, I definitely agree with you there.

The idea behind the historical-critical method is precisely to peel off the layers of spin, gloss and assorted cruft which has grown around the original Biblical texts and try to understand what it would have meant to its original audience. Once you've got that, you can decide how to apply it in a more modern context.

Hey, maybe I'm a skeptic...?

Like Kiwi said, you're definitely entering that territory. You sound like you're taking a few tentative steps on the next stage of your journey. I don't know where you're going to end up, but when you get there, you'll have grown considerably. That's nothing to be frightened of.

It's not wrong to question received wisdom. It's not wrong to doubt. It's not wrong to engage with questions that you find difficult; indeed, it's better than ignoring the problem.

Indeed, you should question everything, especially anything that I say. I can only tell you where I've been and am now. I can't tell you where you're headed.

Atheists and athesim have no dogma nor ideology of any kind.

Atheism doesn't, but plenty of atheists do.

So for that reason, not to split hairs, but it's really not correct to capitalize atheist or atheism except as the first word of a sentence.

I take your point, but grammatically speaking, "Atheism" is a proper noun. I really should avoid capitalising "atheist", though, because it's either an adjective or a common noun. Thanks for the heads-up.

I don't capitalise the word "Christian" because it has special features that "atheist" doesn't, but because "Christ" is a proper noun. Similarly, I tend to capitalise "conservative" with lower case and "Marxist" with upper case.

I take issue with your statement that, "atheist does not refer to those who doubt." In fact, generally speaking, it seems to me that the precise opposite is true.

What I mean by this is that just because you doubt, that doesn't automatically make you atheist. If it did, half the Psalmists would be reckoned "atheist".

[Brad]

I take issue with your statement that, "atheist does not refer to those who doubt." In fact, generally speaking, it seems to me that the precise opposite is true.

What I mean by this is that just because you doubt, that doesn't automatically make you atheist. If it did, half the Psalmists would be reckoned "atheist".

Agreed there! Surely the most thoughtful and intelligent theists have doubts of many kinds arise, and among those would certainly have been the Psalmists. (In the period of history the Psalmists were writing, I probably would have remained a theist, despite doubts and confusion, too.) So I should qualify my earlier statement by saying that believers, in comparison to non-believers, tend not to express or fully examine their doubts. In that light, I'm sure we all admire Magenta, who is doing just that in the context of an environment that certainly does not encourage critical thinking.

Of course, what you and I argue over is how these doubts are best resolved. But perhaps we'd agree that the really scary theists are those - way too many, now and throughout history - who have no doubts and don't want anyone else to have them, either!

Your comment reminds me also that the Biblical Jesus could be considered a "doubter," too, insofar as he didn't exactly toe the line and regurgitate received wisdom / law & authority - often, anyway.
And that reminds me that Jesus was included in the list of "doubters" in the subtitle of the book "Doubt" by Jennifer Michael Hecht, much to the dismay of many Christians.

[Magenta]

I've deleted my post for personal reasons
Sorry if it messes up the thread