Trolls

[spongebob]

I wish there was some way to limit or screen or otherwise muzzle trolls like Knopfer. People like that really add nothing to forums, except frustration and aggravation.

[NH Baritone]

I wish there was some way to limit or screen or otherwise muzzle trolls like Knopfer. People like that really add nothing to forums, except frustration and aggravation.

Oddly, I think he's a typical Calvinistic Christian. Yes, he's annoying, but so's the entire population of such irrational bigots.

[darkumbra]

I wish there was some way to limit or screen or otherwise muzzle trolls like Knopfer. People like that really add nothing to forums, except frustration and aggravation.

Oddly, I think he's a typical Calvinistic Christian. Yes, he's annoying, but so's the entire population of such irrational bigots.

Frankly I think I'm beginning to 'understand' these folks. And, I'm beginning to 're-frame' them in a way that I find very useful. Consider them as an encounter with an alien lifeform... sort of a 'first contact' scenario. A form of life, with a perspective on the world that is foreign to us, but has its own 'internal consistency'... I'm not saying it's logical, or that it is reality based in any way, shape or form - but is is consistent.

First axiom? The Bible is truth.
2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom.

That about sums it up. What is fascinating to me. That a brain, constructed almost identically to mine, can operate in such a peculiar manner.

I give myself about 6-8 weeks at most - before I lose this 're-framing' and the frustration level boils over again.

Cheers
DU

[spongebob]

As I keep repeating, a hard core Christian's brain is just wired differently than a skeptic's.

[Rian]

Oddly, I think he's a typical Calvinistic Christian. Yes, he's annoying, but so's the entire population of such irrational bigots.

Frankly I think I'm beginning to 'understand' these folks. And, I'm beginning to 're-frame' them in a way that I find very useful. Consider them as an encounter with an alien lifeform... sort of a 'first contact' scenario. A form of life, with a perspective on the world that is foreign to us, but has its own 'internal consistency'... I'm not saying it's logical, or that it is reality based in any way, shape or form - but is is consistent.

First axiom? The Bible is truth.
2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom.

That about sums it up. What is fascinating to me. That a brain, constructed almost identically to mine, can operate in such a peculiar manner.

I give myself about 6-8 weeks at most - before I lose this 're-framing' and the frustration level boils over again.

Cheers

(in the style of DarkUmbra)
And I think understand "these folks" (the ones I just quoted):

First axiom? Your personal opinion is truth, and you must call anyone that doesn't hold with your opinion stupid, bigoted, irrational, etc., even if they aren't; and If anything makes you a bit uncomfy because it's not a simplistic, scientifically provable truth that you are currently biased towards, be condescending and snide and insulting to make yourself feel better and hopefully drive away intelligent, kind people with different opinions that might make you think outside of your safe, sorry little small-minded box.

2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom. Repeat ad nauseum. And it is truly nauseating - posts like these shame the good, thoughtful, open-minded atheists here.

Happy New Year! I pray that this year, you two will be bold enough to move out of your little boxes and become truly open-minded thinkers and seekers.

[spongebob]

(in the style of DarkUmbra)
And I think understand "these folks" (the ones I just quoted):

First axiom? Your personal opinion is truth, and you must call anyone that doesn't hold with your opinion stupid, bigoted, irrational, etc., even if they aren't; and If anything makes you a bit uncomfy because it's not a simplistic, scientifically provable truth that you are currently biased towards, be condescending and snide and insulting to make yourself feel better and hopefully drive away intelligent, kind people with different opinions that might make you think outside of your safe, sorry little small-minded box.

2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom. Repeat ad nauseum. And it is truly nauseating - posts like these shame the good, thoughtful, open-minded atheists here.

Happy New Year! I pray that this year, you two will be bold enough to move out of your little boxes and become truly open-minded thinkers and seekers.

Rian, I don't think you are being the least bit fair here. First reason, in cases like knupfer, it's clear that he is neither interested in what anyone else says nor is he open to discussion that might, just might, give him something to consider. It's obvious he's using this forum for personal venting and nothing more. That might make him feel better or relieve some degree of frustration he's experiencing in his RL, but it's completely without value on the forum. If a person shows just some glimmer of willingness to admit they are open to someone else's ideas, then they won't get pegged with the moniker of "troll".

Second, I know for certain that you've seen reasonable exchanges of ideas here with skeptics; I've seen it myself. You often express unpopular ideas here, but you are not met with the same kind of "quote scripture only" responses. You are not met with "science only" responses, even though that seems to be what you are asserting. I know this Rian; I've seen it all too often. NHB and DU both are very staunch skeptics and NHB, being gay, is staunchly defensive of his lifestyle/orientation (not sure what the best way to express that is). But neither of these guys hide behind a scientific formula for why they hold the values they hold. Both, in fact, most of the skeptics here (yes there are exceptions), have bent over backwards to demonstrate to you Christians that we hold very deep and sincere humanistic values, that we value most of the same aspects of life as you Christians do, but for different reasons. Having explained this in painful detail, you still insist on asserting that we are mere robots, spitting out statistical formulas. It's insulting Rian, and I would like to see 2009 start out in a more cooperative way.

I admit that I have insulted and offended Knupfer, and I have done so intentionally. Why? The same reason I've done this in the past. If someone is going to engage in dialogue, they absolutely MUST give some ground to those on the other side. Think about this, if I come here and assert that no Christian knows anything about anything; that they are all just ignorant dumb asses who have an IQ the same as their shoe size JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIAN, then the chance of me accomplishing any degree of real conversation is zero. That's exactly what Knupfer is doing, asserting that only HE knows anyting because he is a Christian and we are not. Coming here and spouting his lopsided rhetoric and giving absolutely no acknowledgment that there are real people out there who are intelligent and disagree with him. I think I gave Knupfer plenty of chances to prove that he wasn't just a troll. Once he established his trollness, I'm just done with trying to talk with him because he's not talking to me either. He sounds like a broken record.

And finally, I ask you with all seriousness. Do you really feel comfortable with people like Knupfer around? I'm talking about people with an absolute belief in their own knowledge. From what I know about you so far, I find that unlikely. If I were a Christian, I would be nearly as hard on him as the skeptics. You should at least admit that a Christian needs to meet some level of knowledge before trying to argue his case.

And one more aside, after all the posts and conversations, I can't believe that you actually consider NHB and DU as being inside a box and poor thinkers. These guys have often been guilty of offensive banter, but that's a personality trait. Their intelligence and critical thinking skills are clearly well above average.

[spongebob]

Something else I just remembered about Calvinists. I know a lot of Baptists and Methodists who just hate them. I once worked with a Calvinist. I never told him he was an idiot even thought that's essentially how I felt about his religious ideas; he was actually very intelligent. We did argue about religion some, but I tried not to offend him; just made it clear that I disagreed and wasn't interested in conversion, which makes little difference to a Calvinist anyway. But as I talked to several other protestants in the plant, I began to see a pattern, most of them thought he was nuts, too. On a spectrum, I'd say I was in the middle while most protestants were out on the edge of opposing him. I think this is because his religious beliefs actually threaten them more than someone who doesn't believe in god.

[Rian]

SB, you spoke about a specific person (and as my first day posting here after surgery, I'm not up on this situation - I need to read some of his/her posts). What I reacted to was DU and NHB's generalizations. It's just their pattern, and seeing it AGAIN on my first day back just made me . NHB and DU are already on some people's ignore lists (and people that I respect, too) - I might join these people soon and put them on my ignore list, because I so seldom see anything constructive from them. It's usually just more of the same - condescending, close-minded insults towards those who don't agree with their personal opinions.

Second, I know for certain that you've seen reasonable exchanges of ideas here with skeptics; I've seen it myself.

Yes - that's why I said that those insult posts "shame the good, thoughtful, open-minded atheists here."

There are many good atheists here; that's why I'm still around.

I'll try to do some catching up - from the little I've seen, I'm guessing I'll agree with you about Knopfer.

[darkumbra]

Oddly, I think he's a typical Calvinistic Christian. Yes, he's annoying, but so's the entire population of such irrational bigots.

Frankly I think I'm beginning to 'understand' these folks. And, I'm beginning to 're-frame' them in a way that I find very useful. Consider them as an encounter with an alien lifeform... sort of a 'first contact' scenario. A form of life, with a perspective on the world that is foreign to us, but has its own 'internal consistency'... I'm not saying it's logical, or that it is reality based in any way, shape or form - but is is consistent.

First axiom? The Bible is truth.
2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom.

That about sums it up. What is fascinating to me. That a brain, constructed almost identically to mine, can operate in such a peculiar manner.

I give myself about 6-8 weeks at most - before I lose this 're-framing' and the frustration level boils over again.

Cheers

(in the style of DarkUmbra)
And I think understand "these folks" (the ones I just quoted):

First axiom? Your personal opinion is truth, and you must call anyone that doesn't hold with your opinion stupid, bigoted, irrational, etc., even if they aren't; and If anything makes you a bit uncomfy because it's not a simplistic, scientifically provable truth that you are currently biased towards, be condescending and snide and insulting to make yourself feel better and hopefully drive away intelligent, kind people with different opinions that might make you think outside of your safe, sorry little small-minded box.

2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom. Repeat ad nauseum. And it is truly nauseating - posts like these shame the good, thoughtful, open-minded atheists here.

Happy New Year! I pray that this year, you two will be bold enough to move out of your little boxes and become truly open-minded thinkers and seekers.

I see that Rian has returned.

Strange how while I make no personal insult... ie. no individual is mentioned - no insulting terms used ... and how I merely categorize a way of thinking - you immediately get in a tiff. AND immediately start with your personal attacks.

The two points I raised where NOTHING more than a reduced version from a science book used in a Christian school. I wish I could find the quote on this forum to report it for you, but the search capability isn't the best. If anyone knows the science book quote I'm referring to, and can repost for me that would be greatly appreciated.

I don't think was single word in my post that is at odds with how a certain class of Christians think. It DOES boil down to Rule #1 the Bible is the word of God... Rule #2... if ANYTHING appears to contradict Rule #1... then re-read Rule #1.

I even paid this class of thinkers the highest compliment I'm capable of... they are logically consistent within the framework of those two rules.

So welcome back Rian - it seems neither of us have changed in our absence - it seems we're both consistent - each within our own framework.

[Redpower]

Next thing I know you're going to be trying to ban me... Unless someone is literally spamming, you shouldn't even consider banning them...

[Rian]

Rian, I don't think you are being the least bit fair here. First reason, in cases like knupfer, it's clear that he is neither interested in what anyone else says nor is he open to discussion that might, just might, give him something to consider. It's obvious he's using this forum for personal venting and nothing more. That might make him feel better or relieve some degree of frustration he's experiencing in his RL, but it's completely without value on the forum. If a person shows just some glimmer of willingness to admit they are open to someone else's ideas, then they won't get pegged with the moniker of "troll".

I wasn't defending Knupfer - I hadn't even read his (?) posts. I was reacting (and probably overreacting) to what I saw as yet another set of typical posts from DU and NHB. And I agree that doing what you say is completely without value to this forum.

.... And finally, I ask you with all seriousness. Do you really feel comfortable with people like Knupfer around? I'm talking about people with an absolute belief in their own knowledge.

There's a mix-up here - as I said on (I think) another thread, I hadn't even read the posts that you were referring to - I was objecting to the generalizations, which IMO happen all too often.

From what I know about you so far, I find that unlikely.

I'm glad you see that!

If I were a Christian, I would be nearly as hard on him as the skeptics.

I think that would be the right course of action, and if I get around to reading the posts, I'll do that!

You should at least admit that a Christian needs to meet some level of knowledge before trying to argue his case.

definitely!

And one more aside, after all the posts and conversations, I can't believe that you actually consider NHB and DU as being inside a box and poor thinkers. These guys have often been guilty of offensive banter, but that's a personality trait. Their intelligence and critical thinking skills are clearly well above average.

They do appear to have above-average intelligence, but wouldn't you agree that intelligent people can be such idiots sometimes? That sometimes the mere fact of an intelligent person's intelligence makes them prideful and blind to some things which are glaringly obvious to others? And that intelligent people can be strongly biased and motivated by fears and other emotions that bind their intellect, just as less intelligent people can? And that very intelligent people are also very good at deceiving themselves?

I think that you have more regard for mere intelligence than I do. I think that there are other things that are more important than intelligence, and those other things very strongly affect a person's intelligence, and can even negate it.

[spongebob]

They do appear to have above-average intelligence, but wouldn't you agree that intelligent people can be such idiots sometimes? That sometimes the mere fact of an intelligent person's intelligence makes them prideful and blind to some things which are glaringly obvious to others? And that intelligent people can be strongly biased and motivated by fears and other emotions that bind their intellect, just as less intelligent people can? And that very intelligent people are also very good at deceiving themselves?

You got me there. Intelligence is no substitute for wisdom.

I think that you have more regard for mere intelligence than I do. I think that there are other things that are more important than intelligence, and those other things very strongly affect a person's intelligence, and can even negate it.

I do, that's for sure. But I think wisdom is important, too. And I also think restraint is good even though I have little. Some eloquence is also pretty cool, too, don't you think? I'm not very eloquent either.

Let's all just start out the new year with a positive note. Everyone start one thread topic on an interesting subject and try to withhold any insults. If knhpfer shows up again, jsut ask him to not be so inane. Me included.

[darkumbra]

Oddly, I think he's a typical Calvinistic Christian. Yes, he's annoying, but so's the entire population of such irrational bigots.

Frankly I think I'm beginning to 'understand' these folks. And, I'm beginning to 're-frame' them in a way that I find very useful. Consider them as an encounter with an alien lifeform... sort of a 'first contact' scenario. A form of life, with a perspective on the world that is foreign to us, but has its own 'internal consistency'... I'm not saying it's logical, or that it is reality based in any way, shape or form - but is is consistent.

First axiom? The Bible is truth.
2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom.

That about sums it up. What is fascinating to me. That a brain, constructed almost identically to mine, can operate in such a peculiar manner.

I give myself about 6-8 weeks at most - before I lose this 're-framing' and the frustration level boils over again.

Cheers

(in the style of DarkUmbra)
And I think understand "these folks" (the ones I just quoted):

First axiom? Your personal opinion is truth, and you must call anyone that doesn't hold with your opinion stupid, bigoted, irrational, etc., even if they aren't; and If anything makes you a bit uncomfy because it's not a simplistic, scientifically provable truth that you are currently biased towards, be condescending and snide and insulting to make yourself feel better and hopefully drive away intelligent, kind people with different opinions that might make you think outside of your safe, sorry little small-minded box.

2nd axiom? If anything contradicts your personal experience? re-read the first axiom. Repeat ad nauseum. And it is truly nauseating - posts like these shame the good, thoughtful, open-minded atheists here.

Happy New Year! I pray that this year, you two will be bold enough to move out of your little boxes and become truly open-minded thinkers and seekers.

FOUND IT... yes - I was determined to find it.
posted by JustJim Apr 4th 2008
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1126&p=19727hilit=science+book+contradict+bible#p19727 I hope that comes through okay.

Biology for Christian Schools [one of the textbooks used by the school] declares on the very first page that:
(1) "'Whatever the Bible says is so; whatever man says may or may not be so,' is the only [position] a Christian can take . . . ."
(2) "If [scientific] conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong, no matter how many scientific facts may appear to back them."
(3) "Christians must disregard [scientific hypotheses or theories] that contradict the Bible."

Now... all I have done in my original note is accept for a fact that such people exist... if you wish to claim, as you have, that I have somehow insulted this type of Christian... go right ahead. If they (you?) can be insulted by their own words and beliefs? So be it.

[Rian]

You got me there. Intelligence is no substitute for wisdom.

I'm glad we're in agreement here. Some people don't seem to see the difference between the two.

I do, that's for sure. But I think wisdom is important, too. And I also think restraint is good even though I have little. Some eloquence is also pretty cool, too, don't you think? I'm not very eloquent either.

Yes, those are good things, and actions are often more eloquent than words, so don't worry too much.

Let's all just start out the new year with a positive note. Everyone start one thread topic on an interesting subject and try to withhold any insults. If knhpfer shows up again, jsut ask him to not be so inane. Me included.

Sounds good, so I'll just say that I don't agree with some of the elements of DU's last post and leave it at that.

[darkumbra]

Sounds good, so I'll just say that I don't agree with some of the elements of DU's last post and leave it at that.

Sounds aptly convenient