Is your faith dependent on literal biblical interpretation?

[Pseudonym]

A judge was a civil position appointed by God. A priest/pastor was/is a spiritual position appointed by God.

Let's go for spiritual positions, then. If women can be prophets (Luke 2:36, Acts 21:9), deacons (Romans 16:1) and most likely apostles (Romans 16:7), why can't they be leaders?

[mikedsjr]

A judge was a civil position appointed by God. A priest/pastor was/is a spiritual position appointed by God.

Let's go for spiritual positions, then. If women can be prophets (Luke 2:36, Acts 21:9), deacons (Romans 16:1) and most likely apostles (Romans 16:7), why can't they be leaders?

A prophetess is not a spiritual position.

Romans 16:1
(ESV)

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,

Romans 16:7 (ESV)

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Romans 16:1 says nothing of deacon as you see. It says a SERVANT. Neither does Romans 16:7 say nothing of being an apostle, but WELL KNOWN TO THE APOSTLES.

When it comes to studying Scripture

[tirtlegrrl]

mikedsjr wrote: A judge was a civil position appointed by God. A priest/pastor was/is a spiritual position appointed by God.

Forgive me for being dense, but I don't see why this matters. Both are responsible for upholding God's precepts, whether legal or spiritual. Deborah as judge is a specific case of a woman being allowed in a position of authority over a man.

A prophetess is not a spiritual position.

Can you define from the Bible what a "spiritual position" is? I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Why should women be allowed in civil positions but not spiritual ones? (I can guess what you might say, but I don't want to presume.) It is odd of Paul to say "there is no male or female, all are one in Christ Jesus" and in a letter to Timothy expressly say "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man..." Is it possible that Paul's admonition in that passage is only for the church in Ephesus?

[Huston]

Carico wrote:The bible is the Word of God.

I thought Jesus was the Word of God.

Yes. I don't see John 1:1-4 and 2 Tim. 3:16-17 as being mutually exclusive.

[Pseudonym]

A prophetess is not a spiritual position.

OK, now I'm confused. Like tirtlegrrl, I'm curious to know what a "spiritual position" is.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,

The word here translated "servant" is the Greek word diakonos. It literally means "servant", but also refers to the office of deacon (and is, indeed, where we get that word from). This illustrates one of the pitfalls of Biblical translation. Nobody disputes that diakonos was a job title in the Early Church. Whether you translate this instance as "deacon" or "servant" here depends entirely on what you're trying to prove about the role of women.

There's a similar story here:

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

This is also an interpretation. What it literally says is something more like "they are prominent among the apostles". This could mean that Junia was a prominent apostle, and could mean that she was regarded highly by the apostles. Translating this as "they are well known" takes a position on the question where the Greek is more neutral. It seems pretty clear to me that the ESV has a consistent translation bias here.

[Sharmie]

I shall leave the Biblical debate to the rest of you (for now ) and try to answer the original question: Is my faith dependent on literal biblical interpretation? The answer is: No, it is not. Nor is the offering of eternal life a 'carrot' that keeps me faithful. Nor do I fear hell. My faith did not come from years of Sunday school and church. My faith did not come from Bible study and scripture. My faith began with a spiritual experience. I met God and through him, his son. Since that time, I have had a relationship with Christ; just as deep, just as real, and sometimes just as frustruating as any other serious long-term relationship.

For the Christian, the Bible is an absolute, for the Muslim it is the Koran, for the Jew, the Torah, etc—conviction of truth is prevalent in every religion. But they can't all be absolute—someone has to be wrong. (And is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps, at least in part, we've all got it wrong?)

I believe the Bible holds truth, but I do not trust man as far as I can toss him. Therefore my faith is not in the book nor the plethora of interpretations of the book, but in it's inspiration. With my focus on that, the rest becomes semantics. (And, since Christ really wasn't into semantics, I'm feeling pretty positive that my faith is not ill-placed.)

[whoosanightowl]

I shall leave the Biblical debate to the rest of you (for now ) and try to answer the original question: Is my faith dependent on literal biblical interpretation? The answer is: No, it is not. Nor is the offering of eternal life a 'carrot' that keeps me faithful. Nor do I fear hell. My faith did not come from years of Sunday school and church. My faith did not come from Bible study and scripture. My faith began with a spiritual experience. I met God and through him, his son. Since that time, I have had a relationship with Christ; just as deep, just as real, and sometimes just as frustruating as any other serious long-term relationship.

For the Christian, the Bible is an absolute, for the Muslim it is the Koran, for the Jew, the Torah, etc—conviction of truth is prevalent in every religion. But they can't all be absolute—someone has to be wrong. (And is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps, at least in part, we've all got it wrong?)

I believe the Bible holds truth, but I do not trust man as far as I can toss him. Therefore my faith is not in the book nor the plethora of interpretations of the book, but in it's inspiration. With my focus on that, the rest becomes semantics. (And, since Christ really wasn't into semantics, I'm feeling pretty positive that my faith is not ill-placed.)

Hi Sharmie,
I'm interested in hearing about your conversion story if you care to share.
What exactly was your spiritual experience and when did it occur?
Was something happening in your life that lead you to finding God or was it a sudden revelation like Paul had on the road to Damascus?
What were you raised to believe as a child?
How did you come to believe or "meet" Jesus in God's son?
What do you mean by relationship, personally? Do you believe in a literal hell?
Do you believe Jesus is the ONLY way to God/heaven?
Are there any other important details of your conversion experience?
Thanks,
Sue

[mikedsjr]

I believe the Bible holds truth, but I do not trust man as far as I can toss him. Therefore my faith is not in the book nor the plethora of interpretations of the book, but in it's inspiration. With my focus on that, the rest becomes semantics. (And, since Christ really wasn't into semantics, I'm feeling pretty positive that my faith is not ill-placed.)

Welcome.

There is a point to which i agree, but I hope this doesn't mean that you feel that the truth of what we need to know of God is arbitrary. Christ is God. He didn't concern with semantics because He dealt directly with the heart of the people around Him because He could because He is God. He didn't have to wonder where someone was coming from and what they might be meaning. He knew. Jesus Christ was God in flesh. And those who seek for a proof that God exists only have to look at Christ. He is our burden of proof, because He is God.

We have to worry about semantics, because we are not God. We have to deal with gaining knowledge of the scriptures in order to refute those twisting scipture. And those twisting scripture are nearly always those who are heretics or a christian speaking a heresy and not knowing it.

[humanguy]

Jesus Christ was God in flesh. And those who seek for a proof that God exists only have to look at Christ.

Now we're getting somewhere! Great, show him to me and I'll be the first one to sign up!

[Sharmie]

There is a point to which i agree, but I hope this doesn't mean that you feel that the truth of what we need to know of God is arbitrary.

Not at all. My statement was about where I put my faith and not meant to imply that I believe knowledge of scripture unimportant. In fact, I believe knowledge of scripture to be incredibly important. How else can one claim themselves Christian if they haven't taken the time to read and understand what that means? I've spent years listening, studying, reading, learning... it's a lifelong process. Everything we hear or read needs to be tested. When listening to a pastor or fellow, or watching God-TV or whatever, we should never content ourselves to accept what is being said as truth without testing it. If scripture is used, then look it up. Read the before and after. Test what's being said against your heart. Let God guide you to truth, lest you be led astray.

As for semantics, I was referring to the 'miss the forest for the trees' type focus; the letter of the law versus the spirit of it.

[Sharmie]

Hi Sharmie,
I'm interested in hearing about your conversion story if you care to share.
What exactly was your spiritual experience and when did it occur?
Was something happening in your life that lead you to finding God or was it a sudden revelation like Paul had on the road to Damascus?
What were you raised to believe as a child?
How did you come to believe or "meet" Jesus in God's son?
What do you mean by relationship, personally? Do you believe in a literal hell?
Do you believe Jesus is the ONLY way to God/heaven?
Are there any other important details of your conversion experience?
Thanks,
Sue

Hi Sue,

So a simple, quick answer then, huh... Well, here's a start on a reply anyways:

When I 'found' God, it wasn't my intent. In fact, what I was looking to do was shed the shackles of my religious upbringing. I was 18-19 years old; a college student. From my adoption at age 6, I had been raised in the church; and not just as a pew sitter. I was very active. I was also full of questions. (It's my nature to read the fine print.) Why? How? When? Where? Who? It didn't take long before my questions were more than my parents and sunday school teachers could handle. Reinforcements were brought in; and I grilled them relentlessly. But, while it was a great experience, I wasn't quite satisfied with what I was hearing. Evolution played a part; my family were creationists but I couldn't dismiss what I was learning in school as unfounded rubbish.

Flash forward a bit and here I was, tired of religion, tired of questions whose answers only brought about more questions, unwilling to continue trying to believe in something simply because I'd been told it was real. So, one night I decided it was time to quit the God thing. And that's when I found him. I suppose it was a bit Paul on the road to Damascus. It certainly was intense. But now I know he is real and I can't unknow the truth. I've tested it against all of the usual theories—delusions, enduced hysteria, driving emotional need, etc. But none of that fits. What I experienced was unexpected and I trust the truth of it.

I hope that answers you at least in part. More for another time.


Take Care,

Sharmie

[Angela]

I suppose it was a bit Paul on the road to Damascus. It certainly was intense. But now I know he is real and I can't unknow the truth. I've tested it against all of the usual theories—delusions, enduced hysteria, driving emotional need, etc. But none of that fits. What I experienced was unexpected and I trust the truth of it.

Hi Sharmie, I for one would love to hear an account of what you experienced, if you have time and don't mind.

Have you read The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James?

[whoosanightowl]

Sharmie,
Well it's a start, but it really didn't answer what you experienced that led to finding God, and I'm really interested in knowing that. The first part of your story sounds very familiar, raised in Christian home, too many unanswered questions, etc.
But that's where many of us start to realize the bus we're on is going in circles and so we get off, only to discover that the bus is indeed following a circular track.
Some of the other passengers have an idea at least that they're going in circles but decide to stay on board because they enjoy the fellowship with the other people on the bus, singing songs together (the wheels on the bus go round and round), and they really like the bus driver who they've come to know personally by trusting in him and his driving abilities.
The only problem is that the driver is invisible and doesn't speak audibly, but they convince themselves and each other that there must be a driver because the bus is moving.

[Sharmie]

Hi Sharmie, I for one would love to hear an account of what you experienced, if you have time and don't mind.

Well it's a start, but it really didn't answer what you experienced that led to finding God, and I'm really interested in knowing that.

Basically, I did one of those, "If you're out there then show yourself NOW" kind of things. You know, just like we're taught not to do?!! I expected nothing to happen. For me, it was semantics—I wanted the ability to say with sincerity, "I sought and didn't find, asked and didn't receive, knocked but nothing opened for me." And, this was my final litmus test. One more attempt and then I was done. I was looking forward to it. Atheism makes more logical sense; and I like logical things.

So, I shut my bedroom door, sat down in the middle of the floor, did the flip to a random page in the bible thing (which didn't make sense); and then I closed my eyes and prayed for God to show himself to me in a way that I would have absolutely doubt. I told God I wouldn't be asking again. What happened next still gives me chills. I felt this power overwhelm me and I knew. It was like being blind and having your eyesight restored in an instant. Everything was too bright, the colours too intense, my senses went into overload with the power of what I was feeling. But I knew. There was no doubt. There still isn't. There is something more than all of this... there is something out there. We call him God. We call his son Jesus. We place him in the box known as Christianity and we worship him accordingly. Now, maybe the religion has it wrong—I'll grant you that it could be the case. But I know—without a shadow of a doubt—that whatever name you use, he is there and he is real.

But that's where many of us start to realize the bus we're on is going in circles and so we get off, only to discover that the bus is indeed following a circular track.

That's religion; the bus I mean. As for the driver, I sometimes wonder—when it comes to that bus—when its God driving and when the nefarious 'powers that be' have actually put the bus on auto-pilot and are just telling us its God.

[Angela]

I felt this power overwhelm me and I knew. It was like being blind and having your eyesight restored in an instant. Everything was too bright, the colours too intense, my senses went into overload with the power of what I was feeling. But I knew. There was no doubt. There still isn't. There is something more than all of this... there is something out there. We call him God. We call his son Jesus. We place him in the box known as Christianity and we worship him accordingly. Now, maybe the religion has it wrong—I'll grant you that it could be the case. But I know—without a shadow of a doubt—that whatever name you use, he is there and he is real.

Thank you Sharmie. I really appreciate you sharing this. I have a couple of experiences to relate, then a comment or two.

Numerous times in my Christian spiritual life I experienced God. Once in particular, when I was 16 and praying outside in the woods on a beautiful winter day, I felt an intense, powerful love surround me. It was like you say, overwhelming and indescribable. I knew it was God.

Later, when I was having doubts but desperately wanted to hold on to my faith, mostly because I believed that life would not have meaning without it, I did beg God to show himself to me. I knew he could if he wanted to. He's God, right? Just one clear, unequivocal message, that's all I wanted. I begged and pleaded. It didn't happen.

Now I won't argue with you that there isn't "something more than all of this" (although I think the something may be more inside of us than "out there"). No way do we humans understand all there is to understand about how the universe (including our own minds) works. I don't think we ever will. And that may be a good thing. But I would point out that "We" don't call this "something" any one thing. We call "it" all sorts of different things. I believe you and I both experienced "something." But it is a big leap from something to him, bigger from him to God, and there's a huge chasm between God and his son Jesus. None of that was in either of our experiences. Those names for the something come from thoughts and ideas we used to interpret our experiences.

I think that putting that something more you speak of, however real it is, in any box and worshipping it is a mistake.