Magical Christianity

[mitchellmckain]

I believe in magic as an alegorical representative of the invisible powers of the heart and spirit. I believe in the power of stories to reveal the unseen in symbolism and metaphor. And so it is without reservation that I can say that I believe in Santa Claus. But this does not mean that I expect to find anything on an expedition to the north pole. However, there is a kind of magical thinking, which I do not believe in at all. This magical thinking often takes the form of making deals with God (or the devil), supposing that if we do (or promise to do) certain things that we think God wants us to do, then somehow we will get what we desperately want. More generally there are all sorts of magical systems of belief that we can control our destiny by doing things that have no rational connection to the events in our life.

I have begun to wonder about these Christians I have encountered that seem to believe in Christianity as some sort of magic. They interpret Genesis as a magical story in comic book style of a God creating the world by the power of command and then using powers like necromancy to animate a golem of dust called Adam and reanimate a body part and call it Eve. Do they insist that the six days in the story of creation are literal 24 hour days as part of their affirmation in the belief of the power of Christian magic? Is their refusal to accept the rationality of science a consequence of this commitment to believe in the magic of Christianity?

Well what really concerns me is that I am begining to wonder if all this is connected to their understanding of Christianity as a magical formula for salvation. Do they think they are saved by their words of affirmation in a belief in Jesus as if it were a magical spell? Do they understand faith as some magical power given to them by God which gives the magical spell of savation its power? Are things like a contrite heart and repentance just ingredients in this magical formula? The reason I ask is because they seem to be proud of being Christian as if this was one of their accomplishments in life. Is Christianity just a way that they can feel like winner in life and by which they can look down with disdain at all the losers?

This is not my understanding of Christianity at all. I cannot comprehend how there can be any room for self-righteousness in a Christian. We are not saved by any work or merit of our own but only by the work of God because of His undeserved love for us, which is offered to all and which all are free to accept or reject. I have heard this rational by Christians that they are proud of the Christ that is working within them. Can we really buy into this kind of double talk? If Christ is really within them then is self-righteousness the personality of Christ?

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who morn for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil aganst you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven..."

With this in mind, I pretend to no riches of spirit; I morn for all who suffer from the evils of this world; I lord it over no one and dictate to no one what they must believe; I pretend to no righteousness of self but beg for God to fill me with His righteousness; I seek mercy for all sinners knowing that I am one of them; I endeavor to be pure and honest of heart; and above all I seek to be a peacemaker, for I would dearly love to be called a child of God. And so it is without fear that I walk down the middle of a rhetorical battlefield pointing out the stupidities of both sides knowing that I will be reviled by both sides, for that is the path of the peacemaker.

It is not the Christian way to condemn people but only the behavior which cannot be accepted because every Christian KNOWS that he is a sinner and ought to be condemned as well. Therefore we do not presume upon the Grace of God to act like we are sitting pretty in His forgiveness and therefore free to condemn others for their sins. To act like you have the power to condemn is to act like you have the power to save yourself. "Do not say say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down) or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is bring Christ up from the dead)." Rom 10:6-7 Only God has the power to do such things and therefore it is only God who can judge the soul of human beings. We must must make judgements of right and wrong to guide our own choices and actions but people we can only judge according to the law of land and then only to commend their spirit to the care of God.

We are warned, "as you judge so shall you be judged." And so if anything is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and unforgivable, it is this: to refuse to others the mercy and forgiveness that God has given you. Is this not the meaning of the parable in Matthew 18:23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay his lord ordered him to be sold with his wife and children and all that he had and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii and seizing him by the throat he said 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refuse and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When the servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then the lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

And so it is that when I see Christianity turned on its head to made into some sort of standard of righteousness by which to judge the world that I begin to wonder if this is a magical delusional Christianity which has nothing to do with God at all.

[mikedsjr]

I thought you told me i had no right to tell you what Bible verses said? And you are going to quote verse and think I'm not going to respond?

What I hear from you is a man centered theology which is nested in scripture picking. You love to quote "Do not judge" verses, but yet you are the most pre-judgmental person on this forum. You state you know what I believe and then go off and mis-identify my belief. Does someone who doesn't pre-judge do that? No. Is judging wrong? No. Is pre-judging wrong? yes.

There is no harm or judgement towards any person given by my stating what I believe scripture teaches in the most that holds up through scripture. If you want to believe in evolution, I'm not stopping you. There are Christians who believe that. That doesn't make them non-christian. And it doesn't make a person a non-christian for believing a 6 day creationist either. There's nothing wrong with competing sides hashing it out.

You must really despise Paul since in 1 Cor 6 he says

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul is so judgemental.

[mitchellmckain]

I thought you told me i had no right to tell you what Bible verses said? And you are going to quote verse and think I'm not going to respond?

Hmmm... very interesting. I posted this thing I wrote a couple years ago for someone else, but I guess it struck a nerve or something. Apparently you think the above post is about you. Very interesting.

What I hear from you is a man centered theology which is nested in scripture picking.

What I hear from you is a man centered theology which is nested in scripture picking. Only I have reasons to back up this claim. Its about matching up the utility of certain doctrines with the motivations of human beings. It is why many people have rejected Christianity. The see the self-serving nature of the way many Christians have twisted the teachings of Jesus and Paul and conclude that the whole thing is just a scam by human beings to prey, exploit and manipulate other people. I was raised aware of this but I began to see that there was something else in Christianity beneath this exterior full of self-righteousness and selfishness. And so I believe, in spite of this dogma of yourse which is so obviously man centered because I see who it is designed to serve.

You love to quote "Do not judge" verses, but yet you are the most pre-judgmental person on this forum.

I am sure the Pharisees thought that Jesus was the most judmental person on the earth too. But as I have explained numerous times before, there is as Jesus explained one thing that justifes judgement unreservedly. So Jesus said, "as you judge, so shall you be judged." It is exactly the same issue with tolerance which does not and cannot logically include a tolerance of intolerance. In this case its a fundamental incompatability between self-righteous legalistic condemnation and salvation by the grace of God. So yes Jesus was extremely judgemental of the Pharisees and rightly so. After all, they constantly came to him with unfounded judgements and fault-finding based on their legalistic religiousity.

You state you know what I believe and then go off and mis-identify my belief. Does someone who doesn't pre-judge do that? No. Is judging wrong? No. Is pre-judging wrong? yes.

On the contrary I just wrote this years ago before I even knew you existed and you are the one who has decided that it applied to you.

There is no harm or judgement towards any person given by my stating what I believe scripture teaches in the most that holds up through scripture.

For the most part no. But it is just a plain fact that not all religions are compatable with tolerance and a free society and thus it is the duty of every citizen of such a society to speak against such religions. People can, for example, say that what they believe scripture teaches, is that all adulterers, or witches, or homosexuals, or Jews should be stoned or otherwise abused or killed, and that just isn't acceptable in any society that I am willing to live in and thus I will fight against such things even at the cost of my life.

If you want to believe in evolution, I'm not stopping you. There are Christians who believe that. That doesn't make them non-christian. And it doesn't make a person a non-christian for believing a 6 day creationist either. There's nothing wrong with competing sides hashing it out.

I completely agree and I don't even fault their priorities as far as their personal beliefs are concerned, a relationship with God is more impotant to ones personal life than a correct knowledge of science. However when they try to push such things on which are objectively demonstably wrong then they should be opposed and denounced. But all that is a side issue which isn't really what my post above was about.

You must really despise Paul since in 1 Cor 6 he says

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul is so judgemental.

No I do not despise Jesus and the apostle Paul when they are judgemental. I very much try to follow their example. And what they reply to judgementally over and over again more than anything else, is the legalism by which people use religion as their own personal tool of power and self-aggrandisement.

[Ryan]

I am sure the Pharisees thought that Jesus was the most judmental person on the earth too. But as I have explained numerous times before, there is as Jesus explained one thing that justifes judgement unreservedly. So Jesus said, "as you judge, so shall you be judged." It is exactly the same issue with tolerance which does not and cannot logically include a tolerance of intolerance. In this case its a fundamental incompatability between self-righteous legalistic condemnation and salvation by the grace of God. So yes Jesus was extremely judgemental of the Pharisees and rightly so. After all, they constantly came to him with unfounded judgements and fault-finding based on their legalistic religiousity.

Isn't that what you have done in so many posts? You come with unfounded judgments and fault-finding based on your own understanding? What is the difference between that and a form of legalism?

mikedsjr wrote: You state you know what I believe and then go off and mis-identify my belief. Does someone who doesn't pre-judge do that? No. Is judging wrong? No. Is pre-judging wrong? yes.

mitchellmckain wrote: On the contrary I just wrote this years ago before I even knew you existed and you are the one who has decided that it applied to you.

You do it constantly Mitchell, not only in this topic but across the entire board. I have participated in a few similar conversations and read many of them you had with others. The fruits are there for all to see. We all slip up and do it from time to time, so I am not judging you any more than I am judging myself, but don't pretend you don't do it. That is the very definition of self-righteous. I just finished writing in another topic about you bringing out the "your god" stuff and assuming what my answer would be to Epicurus, of which you were wrong. That is the same kind of thing Mike is talking about here, you do it to almost everyone you talk to on this board.

For reference here is what was said:

Epicurus wrote: "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

mitchellmckain wrote: So to Epicurius you simply say that God either cannot or doesn't want to abolish evil yet. Your god sounds like a sinner who clings to his sin and doesn't want to do anything about it quite yet.

Ryan wrote: ...no, I don't simply say to Epicurus "God either cannot or doesn't want to abolish evil yet" I say, "He can, He is and He will continue to do so, until it is completed."

With these kinds of interactions with you, and after reading your initial post in this topic, I almost had a chuckle when you said:

With this in mind, I pretend to no riches of spirit; I morn for all who suffer from the evils of this world; I lord it over no one and dictate to no one what they must believe; I pretend to no righteousness of self but beg for God to fill me with His righteousness; I seek mercy for all sinners knowing that I am one of them; I endeavor to be pure and honest of heart; and above all I seek to be a peacemaker, for I would dearly love to be called a child of God. And so it is without fear that I walk down the middle of a rhetorical battlefield pointing out the stupidities of both sides knowing that I will be reviled by both sides, for that is the path of the peacemaker.

You might want to be all these things, but like most of us, you fail more than you succeed. You might want to be peacemaker, but you spend a lot of time poking sticks at bears by making "your god" comments, to what should be considered your brother. Your entire original post is like the polar opposite of the things you say you are seeking to be. Its without gentleness and without respect and its chock-full of hypocrisy. For instance you said "I cannot comprehend how there can be any room for self-righteousness in a Christian." You can't? You have it in you, but don't see it? But, certainly others do. Perhaps if you really want to be all those things you said, you should take some time for self-examination on these kind of issues and try to correct your activities. Struggle with it daily, no doubt I do, but we must struggling against, not ride the flow of it. Walking in the battlefeild unashamed, does not require that we point out everyone's "stupidities"... Jesus didn't set out to point out the Pharisees "stupidities" he set out to correct them, but they wanted none of it. Correcting, disagreeing and defending your position with love, gentleness and respect (as all the Biblical authors agree) is one thing, pointing out stupidities is quite another:

Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
Proverbs 26:4

See, we all fail sometimes, I did even by posting this.

[mitchellmckain]

I am sure the Pharisees thought that Jesus was the most judmental person on the earth too. But as I have explained numerous times before, there is as Jesus explained one thing that justifes judgement unreservedly. So Jesus said, "as you judge, so shall you be judged." It is exactly the same issue with tolerance which does not and cannot logically include a tolerance of intolerance. In this case its a fundamental incompatability between self-righteous legalistic condemnation and salvation by the grace of God. So yes Jesus was extremely judgemental of the Pharisees and rightly so. After all, they constantly came to him with unfounded judgements and fault-finding based on their legalistic religiousity.

Isn't that what you have done in so many posts? You come with unfounded judgments and fault-finding based on your own understanding? What is the difference between that and a form of legalism?

What are you talking about? Are you saying that I am like the Pharisees because people I am talking to are without sin? LOL The difference from legalism is quite clearly laid out by Paul in Romans 10. I do not say or ask who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I simply do the best that I can to keep faith with God. Yes I pass judgements about what is intolerant and irrational, you cannot be tolerant or rational without doing so.

[Ryan]

I am sure the Pharisees thought that Jesus was the most judmental person on the earth too. But as I have explained numerous times before, there is as Jesus explained one thing that justifes judgement unreservedly. So Jesus said, "as you judge, so shall you be judged." It is exactly the same issue with tolerance which does not and cannot logically include a tolerance of intolerance. In this case its a fundamental incompatability between self-righteous legalistic condemnation and salvation by the grace of God. So yes Jesus was extremely judgemental of the Pharisees and rightly so. After all, they constantly came to him with unfounded judgements and fault-finding based on their legalistic religiousity.

Isn't that what you have done in so many posts? You come with unfounded judgments and fault-finding based on your own understanding? What is the difference between that and a form of legalism?

What are you talking about? Are you saying that I am like the Pharisees because people I am talking to are without sin? LOL

You know darn well that is not what I am saying. I am saying that you are fault-finding because you are pointing out other peoples faults... hence the words "fault-finding" and many of those faults are equal to your own. That isn't exactly a Pharisee, but it is coming with unfounded judgments and it is fault-finding and it is being a hypocrite.

The difference from legalism is quite clearly laid out by Paul in Romans 10. I do not say or ask who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

You are right, you just say who is a Pharisee and who is a "gnostic legalistic religionist" (as you often say), who believes in the God revealed in scripture and who believes in a "magical Christianity". You just say who "puts their trust in the Bible" and who is "standing in quicksand" who "is closing the door to the kingdom of God" and who is being "foolish", practicing "stupidities" and believes in a god who is "stuck in his own sin" or a god who "obsessed with himself". In essence, you are saying that those people are wrong in their faith or in their understanding of who God is, but not because of what they said, but you disagree and because of what you have decided it means. Saying that God has Authority for example, is something scripture says, but when someone repeats it, you start accusing them of all kinds of things. And with the judgment you use, it will be measured to you. Are those the types of judgments you want measured back on you considering you are probably wrong in much of your understanding too?

Yes I pass judgements about what is intolerant and irrational, you cannot be tolerant or rational without doing so.

Are you without those faults? Are you always tolerant and rational? You can be tolerant and rational without all the insults and judgments I quoted above (yes your exact words). Read Roman's 10 again, he doesn't explain what the only form of judgment is, he explains what the "righteousness based on faith" says.

Christ explains what judgment is also:

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:1-5

He isn't talking about going to heaven or hell, he is talking about judging small flaws, "specks" and with the measure you use to judge them, it will be measured to you. If you are using yourself as that measuring rod, you're in trouble.
As I said, most of us fail at this, and I fail at it even now in typing this post. I am not talking only to you, but to myself as well, because when I look in the mirror I see a worm and not a man.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Matthew 5:22-26

Judging is not in the eternal sense. Its much more than that. So how much more if you are judging people who are your brothers in Christ. When we do that, we blaspheme the name of God and make a mockery of His love for us because we are demonstrating that we don't have love in us. Again, I am very sorry for every time I have fallen short of respect, and I hope you will forgive me for my failings, but please take Jesus' words to heart.

[mitchellmckain]

You know darn well that is not what I am saying. I am saying that you are fault-finding because you are pointing out other peoples faults... hence the words "fault-finding" and many of those faults are equal to your own. That isn't exactly a Pharisee, but it is coming with unfounded judgments and it is fault-finding and it is being a hypocrite.

You are right, you just say who is a Pharisee and who is a "gnostic legalistic religionist" (as you often say), who believes in the God revealed in scripture and who believes in a "magical Christianity". You just say who "puts their trust in the Bible" and who is "standing in quicksand" who "is closing the door to the kingdom of God" and who is being "foolish", practicing "stupidities" and believes in a god who is "stuck in his own sin" or a god who "obsessed with himself". In essence, you are saying that those people are wrong in their faith or in their understanding of who God is, but not because of what they said, but you disagree and because of what you have decided it means. Saying that God has Authority for example, is something scripture says, but when someone repeats it, you start accusing them of all kinds of things. And with the judgment you use, it will be measured to you. Are those the types of judgments you want measured back on you considering you are probably wrong in much of your understanding too?

That's right Ryan, it isn't like a Pharisee and it isn't religous legalism, and so I have answered the only question that was of interest in your post. Yes I have passed the same judgements that Jesus and Paul have when confronted with religious legalism and I shall continue to follow in their footsteps, because your argument here is as pointless as Tony's constant cry "self-defeating". There are dogmas that so called christians continue to spout that are founded in the same religous legalism that Jesus and Paul speaks against, and so I shall continue to speak against the things them. Likewise, in addition to the irrationalities and intolerance that atheist point out in the words of the religious, that I fully agree with, I also see irrationalities and intolerance in their own words against the religious and so I will continue to speak against those also. All of these things mean only that I believe in rationality and tolerance just as I believe the gospel that Jesus and Paul have preached. I certainly will not listen to this absurd argument of the devil that since I am a sinner that I cannot make a stand for what is right. I can and I will, for that is part of living in good faith. Yes as I judge, I will be judged and thus I will NOT make the foolish mistake of making judgements with regards to people's salvation but leave that to God.

[Ryan]

Mitchell... listen to yourself. Whether you like to admit it or not, Tony is right. What you just said is self-defeating. You would rather argue than accept criticism and grow from it.

[mitchellmckain]

Mitchell... listen to yourself. Whether you like to admit it or not, Tony is right.

Listen to yourself. Your final argument amounts to nothing more than saying someone is wrong because they disagree with you.

What you just said is self-defeating. You would rather argue than accept criticism and grow from it.

Sounds to me like you are just trying to defend the gnostic legalism of Tony's sort of christianity, by saying that anything else would be self-defeating. What I would rather do is live by faith than any of these man made laws by which you twist christianity and god into your own personal tools of power. Relying on faith in the grace of God alone is not self-defeating because God is real.

You would rather argue than accept criticism and grow from it.

On the contrary, I LOVE to accept criticism and grow from it. But that cannot happen unless the criticism is correct. And yes that has been demonstrated right here in this forum. But no when it comes to supporting your claims, this ad-hominem type of argument by turning to personal criticism is still a complete failure.

[Ryan]

Sounds to me like you are just trying to defend the gnostic legalism of Tony's sort of christianity, by saying that anything else would be self-defeating.

No, I am saying its self-defeating because some of your statements are full of contradictions. Let's get Tony out of it, he isn't a gnostic nor a legalist. If you want to go back to hurling insults, you can go back to throwing them at me. But, as per our other discussion I hope we have gotten passed that.

[ChristianHeretic]

mitch, I had to chime in here because I agree with mike and Ryan on their interpretation of your post. I agree with your post, much of it, I just don't see the guy I'm having a conversation with elsewhere practicing it.

Now, I'm also going to use this opportunity to recognize the 'me' in what I'm agreeing with mike and Ryan on. I can be just as legalistic and dogmatic in my beliefs as you come across. We've studied them, have confidence it them, and believe in them. Thus, we feel it's our obligation to convince others of the truth we have found. And I justify it the same way you do, by pointing to Paul or Jesus and claim I am simply following their lead, they treated the Pharisees the same way... However, as a follower of Christ, the point behind "judge not, less you be judged" is that you or I am not Jesus, and thus capable of being wrong. So I need to make absolute certain that what I am criticizing another for is NOT truth, because I will in fact be "judged" based on my words. And in my opinion, Paul and Jesus only took this approach with those that were too stubborn to hear them anyway. So their words were probably more for those listening in than those they were speaking to. So regardless of whether we are correct or not, we both could use some refinement in the tone category. Defend your faith, yes. But let's remember to do it with gentleness and respect.

Anyone reading this, including you mitch, please point out to me when my writing style conveys a tone that is argumentative or disrespectful. I am working on this...

[mitchellmckain]

mitch, I had to chime in here because I agree with mike and Ryan on their interpretation of your post. I agree with your post, much of it, I just don't see the guy I'm having a conversation with elsewhere practicing it.

In which case, I haven't the slightest idea WHAT you are imagining the OP says and WHAT it is that you are supposedly agreeing with. "practicing" what? I don't know what you are talking about. The OP is a comment on a certain way of understanding Christianity that I don't agree with.

Now, I'm also going to use this opportunity to recognize the 'me' in what I'm agreeing with mike and Ryan on.

Yes apparently agree with this ad-hominem tactic of turning the topic of discussion from the issues to one of discussing my personality and frankly it just makes your comment as completely irrelevant and not worth reading as it makes theirs.