Jesus was created

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Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:33 pm

Collosians 1:15--The-FIRSTBORN -- of all creation---this is talking about the beginning of creation.
Who is Gods master worker=Jesus--Proverbs 8 is all about Gods master worker--Jesus even speaks in verse 22--Produced me( created direct-first and last) as the beginning( firstborn of all creation) of your way=creation. 1Cor 1:30= Jesus became wisdom.
Jesus' real teachers teach these facts.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby mitchellmckain » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:51 pm

I'm thinking... If the JW's think Jesus was created then that would mean Jesus was no different than the angels. And what do you know... That is exactly what they think. Jesus in their view is apparently another name for the archangel Michael.

So for them, Jesus is just one of these messenger spirits. --> For god so love the world, he sent us another angel. I guess the JW gospel isn't so much about God's love for us but rather God's love for his favorite angel.

The Bible teaches that we begin lower than the angels but eventually rise above them to be their judges. Does this apply to all the angels?

It sure makes trash out of the epistle to the Hebrews which is all about how Jesus is not like the angels at all.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:57 am

Jesus was a mortal--made lower than the angels-Hebrews 2:7-9-- Michael is the spirit being.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Chapabel » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:31 am

Jesus is the Creator, therefore He must be God: John 1:1-3, 10, 14. He possessed a mortal body for a while, but He was, is and always shall be God.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby mitchellmckain » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:45 am

I was going to say that Colosians 1 was more convincing

Colosians 1 wrote:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[i] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.


But the problem with these was always how they could be understood only to refer to the indwelling of God in Jesus. For this reason it is Phillipians 2 which convinced me because this also tells how it came to be. It was NOT a man becoming so favored by God that he was blessed by some indwelling spirit (whether the Holy Spirit or the archangel Michael) but God deciding to become a man.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.


Together I think these passages rule out the pseudo-Christian theologies like those of the JWs, the Mormons and the Moonies. These passages don't agree with the Arianism of the JWs, the adoption of the Moonies and the near Arianist Christology of the Mormons. Trinitarian theology works with both of these passages. But of course, the JWs and Mormons probably solve this by just altering the scriptures and writing their own version of the Bible.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:43 pm

Chapabel wrote:Jesus is the Creator, therefore He must be God: John 1:1-3, 10, 14. He possessed a mortal body for a while, but He was, is and always shall be God.



I just showed you what Jesus said at Prov 8:22-- Jehovah created Jesus--directly--first and last, then created all other things through him. Its a guaranteed fact of reality--trinity translations are filled with misleading errors to support false Catholicism council teachings.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:47 pm

mitchellmckain wrote:I was going to say that Colosians 1 was more convincing

Colosians 1 wrote:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[i] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.


But the problem with these was always how they could be understood only to refer to the indwelling of God in Jesus. For this reason it is Phillipians 2 which convinced me because this also tells how it came to be. It was NOT a man becoming so favored by God that he was blessed by some indwelling spirit (whether the Holy Spirit or the archangel Michael) but God deciding to become a man.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.


Together I think these passages rule out the pseudo-Christian theologies like those of the JWs, the Mormons and the Moonies. These passages don't agree with the Arianism of the JWs, the adoption of the Moonies and the near Arianist Christology of the Mormons. Trinitarian theology works with both of these passages. But of course, the JWs and Mormons probably solve this by just altering the scriptures and writing their own version of the Bible.




Every true follower of Jesus on earth--listens to his words over the dogmas of men--John 17:1-6,26--Jesus clearly teaches here--the one who sent him=Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) 0 doubt in all creation.
And as well--last line-Lords prayer--The KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY all belong to the Father. This is the true God=John 4:22-24

Yes--first place in everything--including being created direct by the hand of God--first and last--all other things created through him.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:14 pm

kjw47 wrote:Every true follower of Jesus on earth--listens to his words over the dogmas of men


Unless His words contradict those pesky dogmas in the Watch Tower...

John 17:1-6,26--Jesus clearly teaches here--the one who sent him=Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) 0 doubt in all creation.
And as well--last line-Lords prayer--The KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY all belong to the Father. This is the true God=John 4:22-24

Yes--first place in everything--including being created direct by the hand of God--first and last--all other things created through him.


In Colossians "first born " means that Jesus has the right to rule over creation. It's a title not referring to physically being first....

Wait, context and proper exegesis, defining words doesn't mean anything to JW's...
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:56 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:Every true follower of Jesus on earth--listens to his words over the dogmas of men


Unless His words contradict those pesky dogmas in the Watch Tower...

John 17:1-6,26--Jesus clearly teaches here--the one who sent him=Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) 0 doubt in all creation.
And as well--last line-Lords prayer--The KINGDOM, POWER, GLORY all belong to the Father. This is the true God=John 4:22-24

Yes--first place in everything--including being created direct by the hand of God--first and last--all other things created through him.


In Colossians "first born " means that Jesus has the right to rule over creation. It's a title not referring to physically being first....

Wait, context and proper exegesis, defining words doesn't mean anything to JW's...



There is 0 doubt in all creation that Coll 1:15 is speaking about the very first being created. The trinity dogmas twist everything they can. They cannot twist this one--Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided( 33,000 trinity based religions) will not stand--that is their fate. They fail to accomplish this-1Cor 1:10--but its a guarantee, the one single religion Jesus started accomplishes it like this-- a worldwide brotherhood, unified in love, peace and thought--no division. One under Jehovah and Jesus. I pray you can see in time.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Chapabel » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:39 am

kjw47 wrote:
Chapabel wrote:Jesus is the Creator, therefore He must be God: John 1:1-3, 10, 14. He possessed a mortal body for a while, but He was, is and always shall be God.



I just showed you what Jesus said at Prov 8:22-- Jehovah created Jesus--directly--first and last, then created all other things through him. Its a guaranteed fact of reality--trinity translations are filled with misleading errors to support false Catholicism council teachings.

The only thing you showed was your ignorance. Go back and start reading in verse 12. It isn't Jesus talking, it is wisdom talking. God created wisdom not Jesus.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Chapabel » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:56 am

kjw47 wrote:
There is 0 doubt in all creation that Coll 1:15 is speaking about the very first being created. The trinity dogmas twist everything they can. They cannot twist this one--Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided( 33,000 trinity based religions) will not stand--that is their fate. They fail to accomplish this-1Cor 1:10--but its a guarantee, the one single religion Jesus started accomplishes it like this-- a worldwide brotherhood, unified in love, peace and thought--no division. One under Jehovah and Jesus. I pray you can see in time.

The great Bible expositor John Gill explains this better than I ever could:
The firstborn of every creature;
not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in ( Colossians 1:16 ) are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature; nor is he the first in the new creation, for the apostle in the context is speaking of the old creation, and not the new: but the sense either is, that he was begotten of the Father in a manner inconceivable and inexpressible by men, before any creatures were in being; or that he is the "first Parent", or bringer forth of every creature into being, as the word will bear to be rendered, if instead of (prwt) (tokov) , we read (prwtot) (kov) ; which is no more than changing the place of the accent, and may be very easily ventured upon, as is done by an ancient writer F7, who observes, that the word is used in this sense by Homer, and is the same as (prwtogonov) , "first Parent", and (prwtoktisthv) , "first Creator"; and the rather this may be done, seeing the accents were all added since the apostle's days, and especially seeing it makes his reasoning, in the following verses, appear with much more beauty, strength, and force: he is the first Parent of every creature, "for by him were all things created" ( Colossians 1:16 ) , or it may be understood of Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God's firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures, being the Creator and upholder of all, as the following words show; so the Jews make the word "firstborn" to be synonymous with the word "king", and explain it by (rvw lwdg) , "a great one", and "a prince" F8; see ( Psalms 89:27 ) ( Hebrews 1:2 Hebrews 1:6 ) .


Again, proper exegesis is a must, not just the heresy of the watchtower.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:22 am

Good point Chap.
"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that-and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison-you do not know God." -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:07 pm

Chapabel wrote:
kjw47 wrote:
There is 0 doubt in all creation that Coll 1:15 is speaking about the very first being created. The trinity dogmas twist everything they can. They cannot twist this one--Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided( 33,000 trinity based religions) will not stand--that is their fate. They fail to accomplish this-1Cor 1:10--but its a guarantee, the one single religion Jesus started accomplishes it like this-- a worldwide brotherhood, unified in love, peace and thought--no division. One under Jehovah and Jesus. I pray you can see in time.

The great Bible expositor John Gill explains this better than I ever could:
The firstborn of every creature;
not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in ( Colossians 1:16 ) are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature; nor is he the first in the new creation, for the apostle in the context is speaking of the old creation, and not the new: but the sense either is, that he was begotten of the Father in a manner inconceivable and inexpressible by men, before any creatures were in being; or that he is the "first Parent", or bringer forth of every creature into being, as the word will bear to be rendered, if instead of (prwt) (tokov) , we read (prwtot) (kov) ; which is no more than changing the place of the accent, and may be very easily ventured upon, as is done by an ancient writer F7, who observes, that the word is used in this sense by Homer, and is the same as (prwtogonov) , "first Parent", and (prwtoktisthv) , "first Creator"; and the rather this may be done, seeing the accents were all added since the apostle's days, and especially seeing it makes his reasoning, in the following verses, appear with much more beauty, strength, and force: he is the first Parent of every creature, "for by him were all things created" ( Colossians 1:16 ) , or it may be understood of Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God's firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures, being the Creator and upholder of all, as the following words show; so the Jews make the word "firstborn" to be synonymous with the word "king", and explain it by (rvw lwdg) , "a great one", and "a prince" F8; see ( Psalms 89:27 ) ( Hebrews 1:2 Hebrews 1:6 ) .


Again, proper exegesis is a must, not just the heresy of the watchtower.



Jesus speaks at Proverbs 8:22--- Produced me( created direct first and last) as the beginning of your way( creation)
Jesus became wisdom(1Cor 1:30)--- Jesus, whom Jehovah created all other things through is Gods master worker=0 doubt.

Let us( Jehovah and his master worker) make man in our image( the ability to love and reason)

Mr Gill is in error as are all trinity translations. They are a divided house--they will not stand( Mark 3:24-26)
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Chapabel » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:44 pm

kjw47 wrote:

Jesus speaks at Proverbs 8:22--- Produced me( created direct first and last) as the beginning of your way( creation)
Jesus became wisdom(1Cor 1:30)--- Jesus, whom Jehovah created all other things through is Gods master worker=0 doubt.

Let us( Jehovah and his master worker) make man in our image( the ability to love and reason)

Mr Gill is in error as are all trinity translations. They are a divided house--they will not stand( Mark 3:24-26)

Pull your head out of the sand and read the entire chapter and you will clearly see it is not in reference to Jesus Christ, but wisdom. If you cannot comprehend this, it may explain your vulnerability to being swayed by the JW's.

BTW, Jesus' house has been standing for nearly 2000 years. Your cult emerged from under a rock less than 200 years ago. Jesus' house will stand when yours crumbles.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Chapabel wrote:
kjw47 wrote:

Jesus speaks at Proverbs 8:22--- Produced me( created direct first and last) as the beginning of your way( creation)
Jesus became wisdom(1Cor 1:30)--- Jesus, whom Jehovah created all other things through is Gods master worker=0 doubt.

Let us( Jehovah and his master worker) make man in our image( the ability to love and reason)

Mr Gill is in error as are all trinity translations. They are a divided house--they will not stand( Mark 3:24-26)

Pull your head out of the sand and read the entire chapter and you will clearly see it is not in reference to Jesus Christ, but wisdom. If you cannot comprehend this, it may explain your vulnerability to being swayed by the JW's.

BTW, Jesus' house has been standing for nearly 2000 years. Your cult emerged from under a rock less than 200 years ago. Jesus' house will stand when yours crumbles.




1Cor 1:30--Jesus became wisdom--Prov 8 is about Jesus-0 doubt.
Catholicism = 2Thess 2:3--which in turn out of their confusion turned 33,000 trinity based religions into a divided house--they will not stand( Mark 3:24-26)

Which is the cult to Jesus? Which is one under God and his son?

33,000 religions divided in a mass of confusion that cannot accomplish this-1Cor 1:10

or a worldwide brotherhood, unified in love, peace and thought-no division.-- this is Jesus' house.
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