Jesus was created

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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:33 pm

Aaron wrote:
kjw47 wrote:There is 0 doubt in all of creation--The JW teachers are correct
Fact-- there are many things said in the bible that one cannot understand fully without further scriptures or Holy spirit, explanation of them. Gods word is in harmony( barring trinity translations--they are filled with error)

The 2 mentions of Jehovah is just showing it is his will being carried out.

You believe in the Holy Spirit?



Of course I do.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kuwano » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:03 pm

kjw47 wrote:You can believe that if you wish, but you will be wrong--No man has ever seen God. = Fact.


I've given you several examples from the Bible using your translation that shows people have seen God - what special knowledge do you have that outweighs these passages?

What's interesting is that you haven't attempted to offer an alternative interpretation - Genesis 18-19 is very clear as is Exodus 33:11-20 is also very clear.

I guess you will probably be expecting a 7 headed ( beast)monster to stand on the sea -- of Rev 13. Many things are disguised to keep satan in spiritual darkness--if a powerful angel being cannot understand what is written in the bible, mortals cannot either--- unless taught by the real teachers of Jesus who get Holy spirit.


Quoting Rev 13 is an irrelevant argument - interpreting apocalyptic literature is quite different from interpreting historical narrative. Why can mortals understand Exodus 33:20 but not Exodus 33:11, Genesis 18:1, Genesis 19:24, Genesis 33:11-13, Exodus 3:1-6, Isaiah 48:12-16, Ezekiel 34: 12-24, Psalm 45:6-7 etc? Because there are some passage 'the real teachers of Jesus' affirm (i.e. those that are consistent with your beliefs) whereas you just discard those passages which contradict your 'real teachers of Jesus' (i.e. those passages which contradict your beliefs)?
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:56 pm

kuwano wrote:
kjw47 wrote:You can believe that if you wish, but you will be wrong--No man has ever seen God. = Fact.


I've given you several examples from the Bible using your translation that shows people have seen God - what special knowledge do you have that outweighs these passages?

What's interesting is that you haven't attempted to offer an alternative interpretation - Genesis 18-19 is very clear as is Exodus 33:11-20 is also very clear.

I guess you will probably be expecting a 7 headed ( beast)monster to stand on the sea -- of Rev 13. Many things are disguised to keep satan in spiritual darkness--if a powerful angel being cannot understand what is written in the bible, mortals cannot either--- unless taught by the real teachers of Jesus who get Holy spirit.


Quoting Rev 13 is an irrelevant argument - interpreting apocalyptic literature is quite different from interpreting historical narrative. Why can mortals understand Exodus 33:20 but not Exodus 33:11, Genesis 18:1, Genesis 19:24, Genesis 33:11-13, Exodus 3:1-6, Isaiah 48:12-16, Ezekiel 34: 12-24, Psalm 45:6-7 etc? Because there are some passage 'the real teachers of Jesus' affirm (i.e. those that are consistent with your beliefs) whereas you just discard those passages which contradict your 'real teachers of Jesus' (i.e. those passages which contradict your beliefs)?



They do not contradict my teachers--- I told you many things carry alternate meanings or are just a part of a truth---for example--In the NT it teaches-- all those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved--if one believes they will be saved---BUT--at Matt 7:21-23--- these believe and these will be calling on the name of the Lord--but will hear these words from Jesus at judgement---Get away from me you workers of iniquity, I must confess I never even knew you----- so you see there are alternate meanings behind certain teachings. to keep satan and his angels in spiritual darkness. and most mortals. that is why there are 33,000 different religions claiming to be Christian, with 33, 000 different truths. Only 1 was started by Jesus, only 1 gets holy spirit to guide them into all truth.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kuwano » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:22 pm

kjw47 wrote:They do not contradict my teachers--- I told you many things carry alternate meanings or are just a part of a truth---for example--In the NT it teaches-- all those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved--if one believes they will be saved---BUT--at Matt 7:21-23--- these believe and these will be calling on the name of the Lord--but will hear these words from Jesus at judgement---Get away from me you workers of iniquity, I must confess I never even knew you----- so you see there are alternate meanings behind certain teachings. to keep satan and his angels in spiritual darkness. and most mortals. that is why there are 33,000 different religions claiming to be Christian, with 33, 000 different truths. Only 1 was started by Jesus, only 1 gets holy spirit to guide them into all truth.


I don't deny that interpreting the Bible can sometimes be challenging, and I agree that God has gifted some in the Church with the Holy Spirit to be teachers and to have the ability to discern God's word for the nurture of the Church. There has been deep reflection in my own Protestant tradition on the passages we've been discussing from Justin Martyr and Ireneaus in the 2nd Century through to the Reformers (e.g. Calvin and Luther), the Puritans (e.g. John Owen, Jonathan Edwards), to the present date, most have taken the view that I'm taking on these passages - it didn't seem unclear to them that Jesus has always revealed the Father in both Old Testament and New Testament and that Jesus was called Jehovah in the Old Testament and indeed held that same status in the New Testament.

I'm interested how does your tradition of teachers interpret passages like Exodus 33, Genesis 18-19 and others? Is it as you've represented, that though the person who appears to Moses, Abraham and others is called Jehovah in the Bible he is in fact not Jehovah. And that the title Jehovah only belongs to the person who no one has ever seen (even though the Bible calls both persons Jehovah)? This seems to be very shallow interpretation to outright contradict what the Bible says without any clear justification for why they are contradicting it. Is there a deeper level of reflection and justification from Jehovah's Witness teachers on why they interpret these passages in this manner?
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:55 pm

kuwano wrote:
kjw47 wrote:They do not contradict my teachers--- I told you many things carry alternate meanings or are just a part of a truth---for example--In the NT it teaches-- all those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved--if one believes they will be saved---BUT--at Matt 7:21-23--- these believe and these will be calling on the name of the Lord--but will hear these words from Jesus at judgement---Get away from me you workers of iniquity, I must confess I never even knew you----- so you see there are alternate meanings behind certain teachings. to keep satan and his angels in spiritual darkness. and most mortals. that is why there are 33,000 different religions claiming to be Christian, with 33, 000 different truths. Only 1 was started by Jesus, only 1 gets holy spirit to guide them into all truth.


I don't deny that interpreting the Bible can sometimes be challenging, and I agree that God has gifted some in the Church with the Holy Spirit to be teachers and to have the ability to discern God's word for the nurture of the Church. There has been deep reflection in my own Protestant tradition on the passages we've been discussing from Justin Martyr and Ireneaus in the 2nd Century through to the Reformers (e.g. Calvin and Luther), the Puritans (e.g. John Owen, Jonathan Edwards), to the present date, most have taken the view that I'm taking on these passages - it didn't seem unclear to them that Jesus has always revealed the Father in both Old Testament and New Testament and that Jesus was called Jehovah in the Old Testament and indeed held that same status in the New Testament.

I'm interested how does your tradition of teachers interpret passages like Exodus 33, Genesis 18-19 and others? Is it as you've represented, that though the person who appears to Moses, Abraham and others is called Jehovah in the Bible he is in fact not Jehovah. And that the title Jehovah only belongs to the person who no one has ever seen (even though the Bible calls both persons Jehovah)? This seems to be very shallow interpretation to outright contradict what the Bible says without any clear justification for why they are contradicting it. Is there a deeper level of reflection and justification from Jehovah's Witness teachers on why they interpret these passages in this manner?



The men you mentioned lived in darkness--they were believing in a non existent trinity god.
I am not 100% sure on what they teach of those exact passages--JW.org has all the answers.
But Gods word is clear--No man has ever seen God.

This is Jehovah---Hallowed be thy( Father) name( Jehovah)
John 17:6,26---- verse 6 = Jehovah, 26= Jehovah
Matt 6:33--- his( righteousness) = Jehovah
John 4:22-24= Jehovah
John 20:17, Rev 3:12= Jehovah

Jesus is not Jehovah--the Father is.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Aaron » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:15 am

Was just reading the story of Balaam and his donkey and noticed how the angel of the LORD seems to speak as though he were God. Thought it was interesting.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:42 pm

The pronunciation of YHVH aka Jehovah is a guess at best for anyone. So how is it that the JW's can know for sure they are referring to God properly? Here is a good site,

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... /yhvh.html
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:14 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:The pronunciation of YHVH aka Jehovah is a guess at best for anyone. So how is it that the JW's can know for sure they are referring to God properly? Here is a good site,

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... /yhvh.html



Because of a promise that Jesus made--John 17:26
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby fauxaviator » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:56 pm

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He has alway been God. He always will be God. He will remain God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. John 1:1-3.

You are going to try and change my mind about my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as being nothing more than a human being created by the Father. You are going to try and convince me that Christ is not God incarnate. It will never happen. Satan, your master, will never convince me of it, no matter what pretty words you put to it.

I read from the Holy Bible. You read from an abomination. I cast out that abomination in the name of Jesus and take authority to never succumb to it's evil intent.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:45 pm

fauxaviator wrote:Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He has alway been God. He always will be God. He will remain God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. John 1:1-3.

You are going to try and change my mind about my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as being nothing more than a human being created by the Father. You are going to try and convince me that Christ is not God incarnate. It will never happen. Satan, your master, will never convince me of it, no matter what pretty words you put to it.

I read from the Holy Bible. You read from an abomination. I cast out that abomination in the name of Jesus and take authority to never succumb to it's evil intent.



Lets see John 1:1--- in simple English--2nd line trinity talk---God( word) was with God= impossible--there is one God = fact.
Rev 3:12--simple English trinity talk--God has a God= impossible--there is one God= fact

Jesus and 3 real teachers teach--Jesus has a God-his Father--- John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28--1Peter 1:3--Rev 1:6-- all 100% in agreement--contradicting the trinity teaching. We all must choose who we will believe. Jesus taught the true followers would be doing this-John 4:22-24=Jehovah.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby One16Unashamed » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:15 pm

kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:The pronunciation of YHVH aka Jehovah is a guess at best for anyone. So how is it that the JW's can know for sure they are referring to God properly? Here is a good site,

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... /yhvh.html



Because of a promise that Jesus made--John 17:26


Jesus also said "I AM" and was considered a blasphemer and was crucified for that reason by the Pharisees. Now if you ask me, your cult is no different then those Pharisees. Your own theology says Jesus is a blasphemer...
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Aaron » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:00 pm

Was reading 2 Corinthians last night and thought it was interesting in the last few verses in chapter 3 Paul says the Lord is the Spirit, then he continues on in chapter 4 verse 5 and says, "For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord [emphasis added]". I thought that was cool, you have the whole trinity thrown in there, kind of almost an A=B=C kind of thing, but I don't want to oversimplify it.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby kjw47 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:09 pm

One16Unashamed wrote:
kjw47 wrote:
One16Unashamed wrote:The pronunciation of YHVH aka Jehovah is a guess at best for anyone. So how is it that the JW's can know for sure they are referring to God properly? Here is a good site,

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_ ... /yhvh.html



Because of a promise that Jesus made--John 17:26


Jesus also said "I AM" and was considered a blasphemer and was crucified for that reason by the Pharisees. Now if you ask me, your cult is no different then those Pharisees. Your own theology says Jesus is a blasphemer...




Not a single thing the Pharisees were saying about Jesus was truth.
Jesus answered the Pharisees question to him--did you live before Abraham---false teachers twist it into Jesus saying he is God when alls he did was answer the question, honestly.
The actual Hebrew wording in the ot is more like--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be-- not I am that I am.
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby Aaron » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:25 pm

kjw47 wrote:Not a single thing the Pharisees were saying about Jesus was truth.

Well there was the prophecy of the High Priest about Jesus. John 11:51 - "He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation"
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Re: Jesus was created

Postby mitchellmckain » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:00 pm

kjw47 wrote:The actual Hebrew wording in the ot is more like--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be-- not I am that I am.


I am not finding ANY translation of the Bible which confirms anything of the sort. This is an example of JWs rewriting the Bible to support their theology.

New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

English Standard Version
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

New American Standard Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"

NET Bible
God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

JPS Tanakh 1917
And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'

New American Standard 1977
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.

King James 2000 Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.

American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.

English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Notice that one of these are JEWISH translations too. How about another Jewish translations:

God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


Let's look at the Hebrew:
'eh-yeh aser 'eh-yeh == אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה

Looking at how the first (and third) word is translated in the rest of the bible we find
'eh-yeh translated as I am, I become, (I) have been, I was, I will be (like)
Not once do we ever see it translated as "I shall prove to be".

Now the second word
aser is translated as who, which, whose, when, what, with, that, where, after
The translation as "who" makes the most sense in the context because God is addressing Moses' question about what he should be called (i.e about who He is).


Finally lets look at the CONTEXT.
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”


The same word 'eh-yeh is used in the Hebrew in all three cases underlined. Does it really make sense to translate this as

I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be and say the people of Israel, 'I shall prove to be has sent me to you.'

WHY are the JWs twisting this passage so FAR out of shape. It is because the straight forward reading of this where God is reluctant to give any name to Moses is so diametrically opposed to JWs self-righteous obsession with giving God the right name of "Jehovah". It is REALLY bizarre! Almost a comedy, I would say.
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